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Lower from out of state

SfGiants_fan1

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CAguns Supporter
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Hey everyone, just wanted to make sure, can I receive a complete lower from an out of state FFL to my local FFL? Also, I’d be receiving it through a trade so how would it work with Cali taxes and everything since I’m not paying for it with cash but rather parts.
 
Hey everyone, just wanted to make sure, can I receive a complete lower from an out of state FFL to my local FFL? Also, I’d be receiving it through a trade so how would it work with Cali taxes and everything since I’m not paying for it with cash but rather parts.
This is a good question since it will be considered an incoming transfer.

The complete lower wouldn’t be an issue. The taxes portion is a good question. I don’t have the direct answer.

Try asking FFL’s you would consider a regular incoming transfer from; one that charges $50-$100 max (I wouldn’t do any more than that); say it is a GIFT, not a purchase or trade for parts. It cost you $0.
 
@SfGiants_fan1

Firstly, you should contact your local CA FFL, and ask a representative of said FFL if they are willing to accept the transfer of a lower receiver assembly (i.e., complete lower). (After all, there are various FFLs in CA who will only deal in stripped lowers and/or 'featureless' lower receiver assemblies.)

Secondly, the receiving FFL will collect both sales tax and excise tax on the subtotal price listed in the invoice. So, make sure that the FFL that has accepted your trade toward the retail price of the lower receiver assembly deducts the trade value from the retail price listed in the invoice.

Best!
 
@SfGiants_fan1

Firstly, you should contact your local CA FFL, and ask a representative of said FFL if they are willing to accept the transfer of a lower receiver assembly (i.e., complete lower). (After all, there are various FFLs in CA who will only deal in stripped lowers and/or 'featureless' lower receiver assemblies.)

Secondly, the receiving FFL will collect both sales tax and excise tax on the subtotal price listed in the invoice. So, make sure that the FFL that has accepted your trade toward the retail price of the lower receiver assembly deducts the trade value from the retail price listed in the invoice.

Best!
You are right that there are ffl’s that are more picky about lowers. Some ffl’s don’t mind as it’s not the complete firearm or fully functional firearm; kind of like an semi auto off roster pistol that can’t be made compliant without damaging the firearms value so they transfer as semi auto receiver.

Couldn’t he just have the invoice be listed as $0 or a low value such as $20 since it’s from a private party? Since it’s from a private party, could it not be considered used; where it could be considered not worth retail price? If he were to go into the store to buy a brand new lower, want to sell it back to the store brand new but it’s considered used now because he made a mistake; they wouldn’t offer him full retail price for that.
 
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@2muchsoysauce4allthisrice,

I only want to stress that @SfGiants_fan1 should contact his preferred CA FFL about plausibly accepting a transfer on a lower receiver assembly. You definitely make valid points and I only wish that CA FFLs would follow them universally. (In my experience, they often don't.)

Now, the transfer is either (1) originating from a private party (an individual) via an out-of-state FFL to a CA FFL on behalf of @SfGiants_fan1, or (2) originating from the inventory of an out-of-state FFL to a CA FFL on behalf of @SfGiants_fan1. In this case of the former, no invoice is required. Rather, the private individual who currently owns the lower receiver assembly merely needs to include a copy of his state's identification and a hand written note stipulating that the he's selling the lower receiver assembly to @SfGiants_fan1. In the case of the latter, the considerations are different. Since such a transfer is a species of retail sales, wherein a serialized item is being disposed, an invoice for the sale is required. If @SfGiants_fan1 offered a trade with the hope of off-setting the retail cost of the lower receiver assembly, the out-of-state FFL should reflect the trade value in the form of a deduction or subtraction to the retail price of the lower receiver assembly. Ultimately, only @SfGiants_fan1 and the out-of-state FFL know what the true value of the trade was.
 
@2muchsoysauce4allthisrice,

I only want to stress that @SfGiants_fan1 should contact his preferred CA FFL about plausibly accepting a transfer on a lower receiver assembly. You definitely make valid points and I only wish that CA FFLs would follow them universally. (In my experience, they often don't.)

Now, the transfer is either (1) originating from a private party (an individual) via an out-of-state FFL to a CA FFL on behalf of @SfGiants_fan1, or (2) originating from the inventory of an out-of-state FFL to a CA FFL on behalf of @SfGiants_fan1. In this case of the former, no invoice is required. Rather, the private individual who currently owns the lower receiver assembly merely needs to include a copy of his state's identification and a hand written note stipulating that the he's selling the lower receiver assembly to @SfGiants_fan1. In the case of the latter, the considerations are different. Since such a transfer is a species of retail sales, wherein a serialized item is being disposed, an invoice for the sale is required. If @SfGiants_fan1 offered a trade with the hope of off-setting the retail cost of the lower receiver assembly, the out-of-state FFL should reflect the trade value in the form of a deduction or subtraction to the retail price of the lower receiver assembly. Ultimately, only @SfGiants_fan1 and the out-of-state FFL know what the true value of the trade was.
You make a good point. I’ve seen your name before back on calguns. It’s nice to see you over here too.
 
Thank you, brother! It's nice to 'touch bases' with you once more. I trust that you've been well?
Yes, same to you as well; likewise. How about you?

It would be nice if they could bring back the itrader system over there where we dont need to create a profile thread for screenshot of old itrader history or new feedback; which eventually becomes lost in a list. 🤣
 
@SfGiants_fan1

Firstly, you should contact your local CA FFL, and ask a representative of said FFL if they are willing to accept the transfer of a lower receiver assembly (i.e., complete lower). (After all, there are various FFLs in CA who will only deal in stripped lowers and/or 'featureless' lower receiver assemblies.)

Secondly, the receiving FFL will collect both sales tax and excise tax on the subtotal price listed in the invoice. So, make sure that the FFL that has accepted your trade toward the retail price of the lower receiver assembly deducts the trade value from the retail price listed in the invoice.

Best!
I will definitely talk to my FFL. I’m trading a bunch of parts for one lower and not paying anything so trying to figure out if there’s still a value on it that’s taxable.
 
make sure it doesn't have a pistol grip or adjustable stock on it, if it does just have your buddy ship that stuff separately because they won't transfer it with "features" and generally won't let you put a fin grip on before transfer etc.
 
make sure it doesn't have a pistol grip or adjustable stock on it, if it does just have your buddy ship that stuff separately because they won't transfer it with "features" and generally won't let you put a fin grip on before transfer etc.
There is no reason to do this unless the FFL requires it. For example I would accept a complete lower as the CA DOJ has regulations that specifically state a separate lower and upper are not an assault weapon. Now not all dealers can read and will make your life more complicated than it needs to be. That is why you do not give them your business.

Any firearms that come from out of state are considered a retail sale and subject to CFET and sales tax. If it were me, I would need to know the value of the trade and collect the taxes so I am not stuck holding the bill on an audit. Any claims of value that seem unreasonable would simply be denied because I am responsible for paying the taxes whether I collect them from you or not. I have zero desire to accept your tax liability.

However, if all I was transferring was a stripped lower, the value would be minimal and anything from $50 to $150 would be reasonable for a used, stripped lower.

Here are the rules should any of you want to read them. https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/sellers-of-firearm-and-ammunition-products/
 
There is no reason to do this unless the FFL requires it. For example I would accept a complete lower as the CA DOJ has regulations that specifically state a separate lower and upper are not an assault weapon. Now not all dealers can read and will make your life more complicated than it needs to be. That is why you do not give them your business.

Any firearms that come from out of state are considered a retail sale and subject to CFET and sales tax. If it were me, I would need to know the value of the trade and collect the taxes so I am not stuck holding the bill on an audit. Any claims of value that seem unreasonable would simply be denied because I am responsible for paying the taxes whether I collect them from you or not. I have zero desire to accept your tax liability.

However, if all I was transferring was a stripped lower, the value would be minimal and anything from $50 to $150 would be reasonable for a used, stripped lower.

Here are the rules should any of you want to read them. https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/sellers-of-firearm-and-ammunition-products/
So it looks like I’d trading 4 parts with a value of $1250 and $300 cash for the lower (it’s a KAC lower don’t judge lol). Any idea if I would pay taxes on only the cash? Since the actual MSRP of a KAC lower is like $400-500 but market value is $1500+. If I have to pay taxes on the value of the traded parts and the cash I might not do it.
 
Shouldn’t be any reason why you and the seller can’t draw up a bill of sale for $1. Unless the franchise tax board is going to start assessing losers like they do vessels and airplanes they have no way to know what it’s worth
 
There is no reason to do this unless the FFL requires it. For example I would accept a complete lower as the CA DOJ has regulations that specifically state a separate lower and upper are not an assault weapon. Now not all dealers can read and will make your life more complicated than it needs to be. That is why you do not give them your business.

Any firearms that come from out of state are considered a retail sale and subject to CFET and sales tax. If it were me, I would need to know the value of the trade and collect the taxes so I am not stuck holding the bill on an audit. Any claims of value that seem unreasonable would simply be denied because I am responsible for paying the taxes whether I collect them from you or not. I have zero desire to accept your tax liability.

However, if all I was transferring was a stripped lower, the value would be minimal and anything from $50 to $150 would be reasonable for a used, stripped lower.

Here are the rules should any of you want to read them. https://www.cdtfa.ca.gov/industry/sellers-of-firearm-and-ammunition-products/
That's awesome that you would transfer it, if you were anywhere near me I would give you business. Around me unfortunately I've never heard of an FFL that will accept it and they all have told me to ship stripped lowers instead. With the tax situation is it is these days though I would (and just did order one in fact) stick with stripped lowers to avoid the extra 11%, though that may not apply to this situation.
 
So it looks like I’d trading 4 parts with a value of $1250 and $300 cash for the lower (it’s a KAC lower don’t judge lol). Any idea if I would pay taxes on only the cash? Since the actual MSRP of a KAC lower is like $400-500 but market value is $1500+. If I have to pay taxes on the value of the traded parts and the cash I might not do it.
I think you should just ask the FFL that you are using what they will do. Ultimately though the less that goes through the FFL the better as far as getting away with the least amount of tax, it's much easier to argue a lower is worth 50$ than a rifle.
 
Shouldn’t be any reason why you and the seller can’t draw up a bill of sale for $1. Unless the franchise tax board is going to start assessing losers like they do vessels and airplanes they have no way to know what it’s worth
Please stop with this silly non-solution. There is 100% a reason this will not work. The CDTFA considers the FFL the retailer and if they get audited, the CDTFA is not going to be convinced the lower was $1. They will instead ask for the fair market price or whatever they do and it will be completely on the FFL to pay the taxes due plus interest and penalties. There is no reason an FFL should be expected to take on your tax liability so you can save money.

If you come to my store with a $1 receipt, I am going to decline to transfer your firearm and you can pay to have me send it somewhere else. So make sure you mention the $1 receipt before you have it shipped so I can tell you that will not work and you should find another dealer that will take on your tax liability for you as it will not be me.
 
Please stop with this silly non-solution. There is 100% a reason this will not work. The CDTFA considers the FFL the retailer and if they get audited, the CDTFA is not going to be convinced the lower was $1. They will instead ask for the fair market price or whatever they do and it will be completely on the FFL to pay the taxes due plus interest and penalties. There is no reason an FFL should be expected to take on your tax liability so you can save money.

If you come to my store with a $1 receipt, I am going to decline to transfer your firearm and you can pay to have me send it somewhere else. So make sure you mention the $1 receipt before you have it shipped so I can tell you that will not work and you should find another dealer that will take on your tax liability for you as it will not be me.
I appreciate the response, and think it goes a long way to help us understand what the CDTFA is going to be looking at. Will they have gun "experts" that can assess value of a used item they never saw the condition of? Not likely, so while I agree $1 would raise an eyebrow, there's nothing really saying that he can't value a KAC lower in used condition at $50. I guess this all requires the seller, seller FFL, buyer, and buyers FFL to all be on the same page, which seems unlikely and not worth the effort. And this is likely the entire goal of the sin tax, to muddy up the water enough to discourage such behavior.
 
I appreciate the response, and think it goes a long way to help us understand what the CDTFA is going to be looking at. Will they have gun "experts" that can assess value of a used item they never saw the condition of? Not likely, so while I agree $1 would raise an eyebrow, there's nothing really saying that he can't value a KAC lower in used condition at $50. I guess this all requires the seller, seller FFL, buyer, and buyers FFL to all be on the same page, which seems unlikely and not worth the effort. And this is likely the entire goal of the sin tax, to muddy up the water enough to discourage such behavior.
Please explain why a FFL would want to be put at risk for you to save some money, which could cost the FFL a lot of money or even put them out of business. What you are suggesting is tax evasion, so do you think that anyone else wants any part of that?

Just be honest, don't put others at risk and pay the price or move out of state to avoid the insanity.

Also remember that the FFL can make it easy for them to avoid your issues, which is to just turn over the firearm to the police and let you deal with it from there. If you don't like that, consider that what you are talking about is a criminal act, so ...
 
Please explain why a FFL would want to be put at risk for you to save some money, which could cost the FFL a lot of money or even put them out of business. What you are suggesting is tax evasion, so do you think that anyone else wants any part of that?

Just be honest, don't put others at risk and pay the price or move out of state to avoid the insanity.

Also remember that the FFL can make it easy for them to avoid your issues, which is to just turn over the firearm to the police and let you deal with it from there. If you don't like that, consider that what you are talking about is a criminal act, so ...
Separate question; not associated with the tax situation…..Wait, why would a FFL turn a firearm over to the police? I’ve heard of some nightmare stories of folks having weird exotic off roster pistols for a PPT transaction, where the FFL hasn’t dealt with that type of exotic off roster before; and threatened or actually attempted to confiscate the firearm even though it was in a legal configuration?
 
Simply asking how/who will be assessing an invoice value for a used lower. I think it’s a fair question as we all figure out how this 💩ty tax is going to apply to various types of transactions.
 
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