Announcement Important Update: Deposits Requests = Ban 🚨

[ikeo1]

I've sold some of my collection over the last few years, all face to face. Transactions have been pretty easy. Its 30, then 90 miles to the nearest FFLs I use, and longer to others buyers have suggested. There have been interested parties who said they wanted something for sure, but then just ghosted the final "where/when to meet" messages. I would not want to get in my car and drive 180 rt without a small deposit.

I consider $50 large enough to make someone follow through with their promise to show up. So I always ask for that via an agreed upon transfer service. I don't have a PayPal account. I thought that was only for old people, like AOL. I don't have blockchain tokens. I thought that is only for young people. I have used Cashapp, Venmo, and upon buyers insistence Zelle. (They were old and tech challenged.)

So, a buyer can transfer a deposit via Venmo, right?
But can a seller agree to a written request from the buyer to use Zelle or Cashapp?

Thanks!

If you're a new user, no. If you have some feedback from verified users here, then you can list it IN the Description. If the Buyer requests using it, then that's on them. This is more of a recommendation.

You will get banned if some of the the following happens (we reserve judgement):

• New Account < 6 months
• No mention of deposit in listing (only in DM's)
• Abnormally low prices
• No other history available
• You are reported for requesting a deposit AND it isn’t listed on the ad.

You may ask for a deposit if:

• You have some history here with various members (more credibility with more users with badges)
• It is LISTED in the ad that you are requesting a deposit.
• Then we recommend users use some sort of service but we can't govern it since we're not involved in the transaction.

We just want to make sure we have some rules in place to minimize any issue.

 

[ikeo1]

we’ve had some incidents recently with new accounts…

 

[GoldensRule]

For the protection of buyer's, wouldn't the best thing be to have a zero exception / zero tolerance of any deposit requests / demands? What is the worst thing that can happen to a legitimate seller? They show up at an FFL and the buyer ghosts them? Where a buyer who is victimized by a seller requesting a deposit can be out real money.

Zero tolerance for deposit requests should dramatically reduce the number of scammers.

 

[ikeo1]

For the protection of buyer's, wouldn't the best thing be to have a zero exception / zero tolerance of any deposit requests / demands? What is the worst thing that can happen to a legitimate seller? They show up at an FFL and the buyer ghosts them? Where a buyer who is victimized by a seller requesting a deposit can be out real money.

Zero tolerance for deposit requests should dramatically reduce the number of scammers.

No. We already have dramatically fewer scammers for a number of reasons than other places without the zero tolerance.

There’s isn’t zero tolerance because it’s labor intensive to enforce plus very marginal benefit. We’ve had a couple of deposit issues but usually it’s the same MO. Educating the user is better because it teaches the user to be aware. We offer tools and expect people to do at least the basics.

When these things are reported, which they are often, we ban immediately if we find things out of the ordinary. People who have lots of reputation from members here should benefit vs someone who doesn’t have a reputation and isn’t treated the same.

 

[BobGBA]

For the protection of buyer's, wouldn't the best thing be to have a zero exception / zero tolerance of any deposit requests / demands? What is the worst thing that can happen to a legitimate seller? They show up at an FFL and the buyer ghosts them? Where a buyer who is victimized by a seller requesting a deposit can be out real money...

I strongly disagree.

If my ad says an item is for sale in city A and the buyer wants me to meet him in city B (30 miles or 60 miles away or however far) from where my ad says I will sell it, I should be able to ask for a deposit.
Just like a merchant might ask for a delivery fee.

If the buyer can ghost me and I made a 2 hour round trip, I've lost 2 hours of my time that I could have used for something fun, plus the transportation costs.
I bet more sellers are scammed by ghosters, than buyers that get scammed.

Making rules for the lowest common denominator is similar to how laws that get passed that we don't need.

I don't want anyone to get taken by a scammer.
But, we can't (and shouldn't) protect everyone from themselves.
It's important that people learn things.
Sometimes life is tough and you have to learn the hard way.

Teach a man to fish...

If I'm not doing anything wrong, don't prevent me from doing it.

I'll propose an different rule.
The first time a user opens up someone else's classified ad, they have to certify that they have watched (and comprehend) the Caveat Emptor episode of The Brady Bunch.

 

[GoldensRule]

I strongly disagree.

If my ad says an item is for sale in city A and the buyer wants me to meet him in city B (30 miles or 60 miles away or however far) from where my ad says I will sell it, I should be able to ask for a deposit.
Just like a merchant might ask for a delivery fee.

If the buyer can ghost me and I made a 2 hour round trip, I've lost 2 hours of my time that I could have used for something fun, plus the transportation costs.
I bet more sellers are scammed by ghosters, than buyers that get scammed.

Making rules for the lowest common denominator is similar to how laws that get passed that we don't need.

I don't want anyone to get taken by a scammer.
But, we can't (and shouldn't) protect everyone from themselves.
It's important that people learn things.
Sometimes life is tough and you have to learn the hard way.

Teach a man to fish...

If I'm not doing anything wrong, don't prevent me from doing it.

I'll propose an different rule.
The first time a user opens up someone else's classified ad, they have to certify that they have watched (and comprehend) the Caveat Emptor episode of The Brady Bunch.

I understand your perspective but, if you don't want to drive beyond a certain distance, I say just stick to that. I believe that thorough communications can weed out flaky buyers but, I can't say the same about scam sellers.

As a buyer, I have volunteered to give deposits to sellers that I trusted after talking with them, not a single one of those sellers has ever taken me up on the offer.

There have also been sellers I thought were sketchy after talking with them and I just walked away.

I disagree with the approach on this site about deposits. Caveat Emptor is a shady principle, advocated for by sellers that puts the onus on buyers to protect themselves against criminals in a very complex society. The greater the protection for buyers, the more trustworthy that particular marketplace becomes. The occasional flaky, non-performing buyer should simply be considered a cost of doing business for the seller and that should be built into the selling price. Caveat Venditor should be the focus of every marketplace!

PS. Whereas a deposit serves to protect a seller, how would you propose buyers be protected against flaky and or criminal sellers? A buyer shows up at the designated FFL, after driving for hours only to be ghosted by the seller, with or without a deposit? What's the punishment for the seller and remuneration for the buyer?

 

[ikeo1]

I disagree with the approach on this site about deposits. Caveat Emptor is a shady principle, advocated for by sellers that puts the onus on buyers to protect themselves against criminals in a very complex society.

It’s ok to disagree. You are provided tools and instructions, please use them. If you choose not to follow that’s your choice. Otherwise why would you say we put the onus on the buyer? A blanket rule hurts good reliable sellers. Now you’ve hurt them who vastly outnumber those that don’t have problems with deposits. We’re not part of the transaction period. There’s a ton of disclaimers about this you agree to.

 

[GoldensRule]

It’s ok to disagree. You are provided tools and instructions, please use them. If you choose not to follow that’s your choice. Otherwise why would you say we put the onus on the buyer? A blanket rule hurts good reliable sellers. Now you’ve hurt them who vastly outnumber those that don’t have problems with deposits. We’re not part of the transaction period. There’s a ton of disclaimers about this you agree to.

I don't think you read what I wrote carefully. Nowhere did I say YOU put the onus on buyers, I said the principle of Caveat Emptor puts the onus on buyers.

As for disclaimers, those might work to reduce your exposure to liability but, they don't do very much to protect naive buyers, IMHO.

 

[ikeo1]

As for disclaimers, those might work to reduce your exposure to liability but, they don't do very much to protect naive buyers, IMHO.

Now you’re not giving enough credit to people. The majority of people don’t have issues with deposits. We do reminders to reinforce the education. We have several guides not just disclaimers, but we’re not mom and dad. We just ask people be responsible, hopefully that’s not too much to ask.

 

[BobGBA]

GR - Maybe you missed the winking emoji. My comment was meant to be tongue in cheek.

"The first time a user opens up someone else's classified ad, they have to certify that they have watched (and comprehend) the Caveat Emptor episode of The Brady Bunch. "

What everyone wants is for the transaction to be reasonable for both the buyer and the seller.

If a deposit, or maybe the more accurate name "a non-refundable delivery fee to meet at an agreed to time and place" (because the seller didn't want to do the drive) isn't reasonable to the buyer, the buyer can decline.

 

[SierraShooter]

For the protection of buyer's, wouldn't the best thing be to have a zero exception / zero tolerance of any deposit requests / demands? What is the worst thing that can happen to a legitimate seller? They show up at an FFL and the buyer ghosts them? Where a buyer who is victimized by a seller requesting a deposit can be out real money.

Zero tolerance for deposit requests should dramatically reduce the number of scammers.

Well, if the seller travels 90 miles each way to the nearest FFL to do a transfer and the supposed buyer doesn't show up, that's 3 hours of driving, another hour waiting hoping they'll show, and 7+ gallons of gas, so at least $30.
So with no skin in the game, some person on here can have fun sending sellers to FFLs just to mess with them. Cuz, you know, that's the world we live in these days. Ban them and they just reregister under a different email.

 

[SierraShooter]

It’s ok to disagree. You are provided tools and instructions, please use them. If you choose not to follow that’s your choice. Otherwise why would you say we put the onus on the buyer? A blanket rule hurts good reliable sellers. Now you’ve hurt them who vastly outnumber those that don’t have problems with deposits. We’re not part of the transaction period. There’s a ton of disclaimers about this you agree to.

Right. "A blanket rule hurts good reliable sellers. Now you've hurt them who vastly outnumber those that don't have problems with deposits." Indeed, a buyer can always walk away if they don't like a deposit request. In that case, what harm is done by asking for a deposit? I always talk on the phone with buyers in before face to face transactions, and nobody has ever had a problem with deposits.

With so little trust and scamming going around, maybe instead of a deposit sellers and buyers should just insist on a Facetime call with each other as they get into their car to commute to the meet, and/or do a location share to make sure the they're on their way.

 

[SierraShooter]

If you're a new user, no. If you have some feedback from verified users here, then you can list it IN the Description. If the Buyer requests using it, then that's on them. This is more of a recommendation.

You will get banned if some of the the following happens (we reserve judgement):

• New Account < 6 months
• No mention of deposit in listing (only in DM's)
• Abnormally low prices
• No other history available
• You are reported for requesting a deposit AND it isn’t listed on the ad.

You may ask for a deposit if:

• You have some history here with various members (more credibility with more users with badges)
• It is LISTED in the ad that you are requesting a deposit.
• Then we recommend users use some sort of service but we can't govern it since we're not involved in the transaction.

We just want to make sure we have some rules in place to minimize any issue.

"
You will get banned if some of the the following happens (we reserve judgement):

• New Account < 6 months"

Does this mean that a user cannot post an item for sale in classifieds until they have been a member for at least 6 months?

 

[ikeo1]

"
You will get banned if some of the the following happens (we reserve judgement):

• New Account < 6 months"

Does this mean that a user cannot post an item for sale in classifieds until they have been a member for at least 6 months?

If you request a deposit AND your account is < 6 months.

It’s more a combination of things. You can create a classifieds listing just don’t hide deposit requests

 

[SierraShooter]

Thank you for the clarification!

 

[ikeo1]

If deals are too god to be true, it usually is. Don’t fall for rush deals!

 

[gorgothmog]

Right. "A blanket rule hurts good reliable sellers. Now you've hurt them who vastly outnumber those that don't have problems with deposits." Indeed, a buyer can always walk away if they don't like a deposit request. In that case, what harm is done by asking for a deposit? I always talk on the phone with buyers in before face to face transactions, and nobody has ever had a problem with deposits.

With so little trust and scamming going around, maybe instead of a deposit sellers and buyers should just insist on a Facetime call with each other as they get into their car to commute to the meet, and/or do a location share to make sure the they're on their way.

On a big ticket item I'm in agreement.

 

[GoldensRule]

Well, if the seller travels 90 miles each way to the nearest FFL to do a transfer and the supposed buyer doesn't show up, that's 3 hours of driving, another hour waiting hoping they'll show, and 7+ gallons of gas, so at least $30.
So with no skin in the game, some person on here can have fun sending sellers to FFLs just to mess with them. Cuz, you know, that's the world we live in these days. Ban them and they just reregister under a different email.

Of course you must realize this scenario applies in the reverse situation, right? Where is the similar protection for a buyer that is subject to an unscrupulous or seller?