Red Dot vs Light in CCW setup

[Hamburger Monster]

Doesn't adding things like this make your CCW less concealed and more cumbersome? Not sure I understand the concept, but I envision CCW for quick unexpected self-defense.

Some people are large enough to hid anything.

 

[Qhoff]

I think having both with be ideal because in a situation where I might need to use my weapon, I would like to have as much tools as possible at my disposal. But realistically walking around with everything just isn't practical.

Depends what your walking around with and if your chunky. Red dot light on sig 365 x maro. Easy carry small zero print.

 

[riceman]

Here is example of Vortex CCW DEFENDER. A quarter is used to show relative size. Glock 43 with extended barrel and a Sig 365 with xmacro grip module by sigguy.com.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

I have 3 on my CCW and all 3 are bone stock no with no optics no lights. As we all know if we had to use it in a location outside of our home, we will have to deal with LE and ultimately some sort of civil fun. I would rather not have to deal with some plaintiff's lawyer spewing about my fancy gun mounting target light, or super duper sniper like optic. You know they will try to twist it.

My home defense gun has a light/laser combo. My thinking here is it will be dark and the light on the gun keeps my other hand free if needed. Also the civil fun if needed when someone breaks into my home, is a bit different than when in public.

At least that's my thinking as of today.

 

[couragewolf]

In order to identify what you may be shooting with a weapon-mounted light, you have to violate the 2nd Rule of Gun Safety.

View attachment 110548

Carry a small handheld flashlight to identify possible threats. Then learn some basic techniques to use it effectively with your gun: https://www.thearmorylife.com/top-3-methods-for-shooting-with-a-handheld-flashlight/

Lot of folks don’t appreciate that the assumption in call of duty games is that you’re at war and surrounded by hostiles not your own family.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Lot of folks don’t appreciate that the assumption in call of duty games is that you’re at war and surrounded by hostiles not your own family.

That's why you play hardcore mode....one shot kills a team mate so you need to ID your target.

 

[tomrkba]

Use those tools if you like! You probably do not need them, but nothing says you can't prepare for an outlier event.

 

[peahi2]

Both...the light allows me to use the different guns with one holster and I like the red dot.

So true...especially handy for classes where you don't want multiple holsters for backup guns.

 

[peahi2]

I can easily rationalize not having a light on my carry gun. I have tons of nice handheld lights around the house and in the cars. and tactically, there are pros and cons....BUT I fear the day that I will be in a situation where I wish I had the light. Hell, for all of us in earthquake country, you can be out and about and suddenly need a light...that cheesy one on the pistol is better than nothing until you can get to a proper flashlight. Yeh, yeh, we don't point our guns at things we don't want to destroy, but you you can take off the light from the gun and use it as an emergency light.

 

[Echidin]

Another vote for red dot and handheld light if red dot and WML are not doable.

 

[Dvrjon]

Use those tools if you like! You probably do not need them, but nothing says you can't prepare for an outlier event.

And herein lies the problem…preparing for the outlier event.

Carrying a CCW and becoming proficient in its use takes time and effort. From what I’ve seen on ranges in my area, neither is being expended in great quantities. And that is just to learn to shoot accurately and to generally deal with the firearm.

Into this, one inserts a red dot sight. Another set of skills which have to integrate into a combat setting.

Add an attached weapon light. A whole new set of manual manipulations to the firearm one is trying to draw, present, and fire in a quick, competent and safe manner.

Since the gun is concealed, the draw stroke has to be clean and smooth, yet the new appendages create bulk and snag points on the garment.

All of these challenges can be met and overcome, but they will take more time and effort which most aren’t putting in now.

 

[Deleted member 11316]

And herein lies the problem…preparing for the outlier event.

Carrying a CCW and becoming proficient in its use takes time and effort. From what I’ve seen on ranges in my area, neither is being expended in great quantities. And that is just to learn to shoot accurately and to generally deal with the firearm.

Into this, one inserts a red dot sight. Another set of skills which have to integrate into a combat setting.

Add an attached weapon light. A whole new set of manual manipulations to the firearm one is trying to draw, present, and fire in a quick, competent and safe manner.

Since the gun is concealed, the draw stroke has to be clean and smooth, yet the new appendages create bulk and snag points on the garment.

All of these challenges can be met and overcome, but they will take more time and effort which most aren’t putting in now.

100%

I’ve actually never once seen a proficient pistol shooter at the range. Only in YouTube videos. I’m not very proficient myself, but am aiming to shoot well before adding more variables.

 

[Hamburger Monster]

100%

I’ve actually never once seen a proficient pistol shooter at the range. Only in YouTube videos. I’m not very proficient myself, but am aiming to shoot well before adding more variables.

Depends on the definition of "Proficient". For me it's someone who is "good enough", competent and sure in his/her abilities but not necessarily an expert. Just like most car drivers are proficient, but not capable of advanced skills like stunt drivers, NASCAR, etc.

With this in mind, I think you could find many shooters at the range are "proficient". But I'm sure you'll find plenty that are sub optimal. And rarely find the expert or pro

 

[tomrkba]

And herein lies the problem…preparing for the outlier event.

Carrying a CCW and becoming proficient in its use takes time and effort. From what I’ve seen on ranges in my area, neither is being expended in great quantities. And that is just to learn to shoot accurately and to generally deal with the firearm.

Into this, one inserts a red dot sight. Another set of skills which have to integrate into a combat setting.

Add an attached weapon light. A whole new set of manual manipulations to the firearm one is trying to draw, present, and fire in a quick, competent and safe manner.

Since the gun is concealed, the draw stroke has to be clean and smooth, yet the new appendages create bulk and snag points on the garment.

All of these challenges can be met and overcome, but they will take more time and effort which most aren’t putting in now.

It’s not that difficult to do. Let’s not overstate it. The problems mentioned are all based upon the fact that most people cannot shoot a handgun well. They never learn a good method and compound the error by failing to practice in any consistent way.

If time and effort is applied, then a short series of classes will take the shooter to a decent level of proficiency. They can learn flashlight and WML techniques while learning defensive pistol shooting. Red dot isn’t bad but one just needs a good class on it followed up by consistent practice for awhile. Someone who takes notes and follows up with logical courses of fire during practice sessions will improve within several months. They will see good gains if they attend the class again within 6 months.

Unfortunately, most people never seek training beyond anything state mandated for a permit. This is where the trouble starts….

 

[Deleted member 11316]

Depends on the definition of "Proficient". For me it's someone who is "good enough", competent and sure in his/her abilities but not necessarily an expert. Just like most car drivers are proficient, but not capable of advanced skills like stunt drivers, NASCAR, etc.

With this in mind, I think you could find many shooters at the range are "proficient". But I'm sure you'll find plenty that are sub optimal. And rarely find the expert or pro

Proficient is being confident or skilled in doing or using something. Not necessarily a professional, but they’re usually proficient.

If the scale is proficiency at 10, and an active danger to others at 1, I’d say most drivers are a 3. Mostly because of distracted driving. I don’t think the average driver is proficient. They’re barely scraping by with knowledge they learned decades ago. They never take the opportunity to get better, or care to. They don’t know how or why a vehicle can malfunction. They don’t know how ABS works, where traction limits are, never practiced a panic stop, yet they say with confidence they are good at driving. They can’t even change a tire.

Drivers aren’t proficient, they’re familiar. They drive in a routine and unconscious way. Skill atrophies, but confidence stays high.

Low skill+high confidence=dangerous

For firearm operators I’d say it’s a little higher, probably a 5 or 6. But same as driving, I’ve witnessed some wild stuff. Reckless stuff that has made me never go to certain ranges again. There’s also a much higher prevalence of “gun lifestyle” people in California, same as driving. I’ve gone shooting with people who have tens of thousands in guns, but don’t know how to operate them, or service them.

Cart before the horse.

I am proficient with long guns and especially shot guns, I shoot a lot of trap and grew up in West Virginia varmint hunting. Pistols need some work before I feel real confidence. If you ask most people if they can shoot guns they will say “yes” confidently. But I find that most of the time it’s simply not true

 

[Hamburger Monster]

Proficient is being confident or skilled in doing or using something. Not necessarily a professional, but they’re usually proficient.

If the scale is proficiency at 10, and an active danger to others at 1, I’d say most drivers are a 3. Mostly because of distracted driving. I don’t think the average driver is proficient. They’re barely scraping by with knowledge they learned decades ago. They never take the opportunity to get better, or care to. They don’t know how or why a vehicle can malfunction. They don’t know how ABS works, where traction limits are, never practiced a panic stop, yet they say with confidence they are good at driving. They can’t even change a tire.

Drivers aren’t proficient, they’re familiar. They drive in a routine and unconscious way. Skill atrophies, but confidence stays high.

Low skill+high confidence=dangerous

For firearm operators I’d say it’s a little higher, probably a 5 or 6. But same as driving, I’ve witnessed some wild stuff. Reckless stuff that has made me never go to certain ranges again. There’s also a much higher prevalence of “gun lifestyle” people in California, same as driving. I’ve gone shooting with people who have tens of thousands in guns, but don’t know how to operate them, or service them.

Cart before the horse.

I am proficient with long guns and especially shot guns, I shoot a lot of trap and grew up in West Virginia varmint hunting. Pistols need some work before I feel real confidence. If you ask most people if they can shoot guns they will say “yes” confidently. But I find that most of the time it’s simply not true

I agree with you for the most part. Proficient may not really be the best word when wanting people to get better at firearm use and handling. But can convey the meaning in the right context.

For drivers, I definitely see your point and there is a lot of bad drivers out there that just manage to survive because there are some good drivers that avoid them and keep the accidents down. But you also have to keep In mind that there are millions of drivers and the number of accidents are proportionately low. This would indicate there the majority are likely proficient enough. It was probably a bad example as there are many debatable points regarding this.

For me, I think I'm close to being proficient with pistols, but definitely have much room for improvement or where I'd like to be

I definitely need more practice with shotguns and rifles. I'm ok with rifles but I know my grouping if not as small as it should

 

[Dvrjon]

It’s not that difficult to do. Let’s not overstate it. The problems mentioned are all based upon the fact that most people cannot shoot a handgun well. They never learn a good method and compound the error by failing to practice in any consistent way.

I didn’t overstate it. If you reread my post, it says exactly what you have opined. So, thanks for the support.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

And herein lies the problem…preparing for the outlier event.

Carrying a CCW and becoming proficient in its use takes time and effort. From what I’ve seen on ranges in my area, neither is being expended in great quantities. And that is just to learn to shoot accurately and to generally deal with the firearm.

Into this, one inserts a red dot sight. Another set of skills which have to integrate into a combat setting.

Add an attached weapon light. A whole new set of manual manipulations to the firearm one is trying to draw, present, and fire in a quick, competent and safe manner.

Since the gun is concealed, the draw stroke has to be clean and smooth, yet the new appendages create bulk and snag points on the garment.

All of these challenges can be met and overcome, but they will take more time and effort which most aren’t putting in now.

Based on what I saw in my CCW class the above is very true! 8hr hands on at the range and boy there were some "new drivers". Some had lights/lasers plus red dots, yet struggled with getting their clothing away from their holster let alone drawing without turning their heads and looking down at their holster.

I'm not as proficient as I would like to be, so for now I'm keeping my CCW simple. No lights, no red dots. I rarely go out at night as nothing good ever happens after dark.

 

[USSZim]

I have nothing against pistol dots and lights, but for me they are just extra bulk. I prefer to have a handheld light since they have more utility and power anyway

 

[bluesolar]

I'd go with both.
WML solves the identification of target in low light, while an RDS simplifies aiming, making you faster and more accurate, especially as you train.