Shooting is a martial art!

[rodralig]

In your list, you name "traditional" gunnery. Is a Glock 19 traditional gunnery?

I brought up traditional gunnery as a historical reference to support the point that shooting itself can fall within a martial art.

No, a Glock 19 isn’t “traditional gunnery.” It’s a modern tool. But if the discipline around it involves trainable combat skills - presentation, timing, accuracy, movement, transition, control, and decision-making, then I don’t see why the age of the weapon should be what decides whether it’s martial.

Thus may stance on trivial debate.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I brought up traditional gunnery as a historical reference to support the point that shooting itself can fall within a martial art.

No, a Glock 19 isn’t “traditional gunnery.” It’s a modern tool. But if the discipline around it involves trainable combat skills - presentation, timing, accuracy, movement, transition, control, and decision-making, then I don’t see why the age of the weapon should be what decides whether it’s martial.

So, where would you stop including firearms? AR-15? Cannons? Howitzers? Weaponized drones operated by an individual? Gatling guns? Shoulder-fired missiles?

 

[MysteryScienceHeater3000]

So, where would you stop including firearms? AR-15? Cannons? Howitzers? Weaponized drones operated by an individual? Gatling guns? Shoulder-fired missiles?

I see you mentioned drones and it made me wonder if dogfighting is a martial art? And if it were, would it remain so when performed by remote pilots?

Is playing street fighter a martial art? Would it become one when piloting a terminator in war?

 

[rodralig]

So, where would you stop including firearms? AR-15? Cannons? Howitzers? Weaponized drones operated by an individual? Gatling guns? Shoulder-fired missiles?

I’d draw the line at a trainable, individual combat skill where direct physical execution matters - timing, coordination, control, accuracy, movement, and actually handling the weapon.. So a pistol or AR-15? Sure. Shoulder-fired weapons could arguably fit. Gatling gun? Probably.

For me, it’s not really about “firearm or not” or “old versus modern.” It’s about whether it’s a personal, repeatable combat skill or just operating a larger weapons system. Hence, I will place cannons, howitzers, strategic missile systems, and weaponized drones as separate.


And since you mentioned your game-dev background, I’ll throw in a little of mine too. I’m also from software, although my background is in enterprise applications in the money industry. On the martial-arts side, I hold Dan ranks in three different martial arts, two of which I earned while living in Japan.

And going back to "Martial Art" 武道 (budō), 道 (michi/dō) literally carries the idea of “the way” or “the path.” To me, that matters - the martial art isn’t just the weapon itself, but the disciplined way of developing and applying the skill around it.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I’d draw the line at a trainable, individual combat skill where direct physical execution matters - timing, coordination, control, accuracy, movement, and actually handling the weapon.. So a pistol or AR-15? Sure. Shoulder-fired weapons could arguably fit. Gatling gun? Probably.

For me, it’s not really about “firearm or not” or “old versus modern.” It’s about whether it’s a personal, repeatable combat skill or just operating a larger weapons system. I will place cannons, howitzers, strategic missile systems, and weaponized drones as separate.


And since you mentioned your game-dev background, I’ll throw in a little of mine too. I’m also from software, although my background is in homegrown enterprise applications in the money industry. On the martial-arts side, I hold Dan ranks in three different martial arts, two of which I earned while living in Japan.

You're consistent, I'll give you that, but I think your category is far too loose. Sometimes we draw a line in game design just to have coherent categories where there's a natural dividing line, like a machine (gun) vs. something one could craft in the wild (shuriken, bow, slingshot, spear, etc.). The craftsmanship is part of the art, I would submit, not just the handling of the weapon itself. Compare this to Japanese craftsman who handed down techniques for forging and shaping some of the best swords and edge weapons in the world.

Skill of course is different by weapon. It takes far more skill to fire a slingshot or arrow than to fire a gun. Even a grenade, being a splash explosive, takes skill with respect to timing, throwing, understanding kill radius, etc. Would a grenade be a martial weapon?

In my view, the word "art" modifies "martial" in a way where modern guns would be ruled out, even if pre-modern guns were included historically. A scoped sniper rifle requires timing, coordination, control, accuracy, movement, actually handling the weapon, good eyesight, steady breathing (and no breathing), etc. Is this a martial art too, and would it be "art" to kill someone from a mile away for those sufficiently skilled? In a way it's very Zen to be an effective sniper, and requires an almost meditative perception of time whilst waiting for one's shot. Being an effective sniper is as much about one's mindset and focus as it is knowing how to technically use the weapon. One could argue that the mindset takes longer to train.

I think we would simply disagree on where to draw the line, were this some kind of design meeting. Of course in a real design meeting, a producer or game director would probably just step in with the final say after hearing everyone out.

 

[rodralig]

I think we would simply disagree on where to draw the line, were this some kind of design meeting. Of course in a real design meeting, a producer or game directory would probably just step in with the final say after hearing everyone out.

I will give you that - on our side, an SVP/EVP has the final say....

You're consistent, I'll give you that, but I think your category is far too loose. Sometimes we draw a line in game design just to have coherent categories where there's a natural dividing line, like a machine (gun) vs. something one could craft in the wild (shuriken, bow, slingshot, spear, etc.). The craftsmanship is part of the art, I would submit, not just the handling of the weapon itself. Compare this to Japanese craftsman who handed down techniques for forging and shaping some of the best swords and edge weapons in the world.

Skill of course is different by weapon. It takes far more skill to fire a slingshot or arrow than to fire a gun. Even a grenade, being a splash explosive, takes skill with respect to timing, throwing, understanding kill radius, etc. Would a grenade be a martial weapon?

Yeah, my definition may be a little loose because I’m focused less on the weapon and more on the skill built around it.

Different weapons require different levels of skill, but difficulty alone doesn’t define a martial art. A punch is mechanically simple too; boxing is martial because of the timing, movement, distance, control, and decision-making developed around it.

In my view, the word "art" modifies "martial" in a way where modern guns would be ruled out, even if pre-modern guns were included historically. A scoped sniper rifle requires timing, coordination, control, accuracy, movement, actually handling the weapon, good eyesight, steady breathing (and no breathing), etc. Is this a martial art too, and would it be "art" to kill someone from a mile away for those sufficiently skilled? In a way it's very Zen to be an effective sniper, and requires an almost meditative perception of time whilst waiting for one's shot. Being an effective sniper is as much about one's mindset and focus as it is knowing how to technically use the weapon. One could argue that the mindset takes longer to train.

I think we would simply disagree on where to draw the line, were this some kind of design meeting. Of course in a real design meeting, a producer or game director would probably just step in with the final say after hearing everyone out.

That said, I was looking to some good references, and the two Gabes came to mind. One from the tactical/defensive world, the other from competition -

• Gabriel Suarez comes at it more from the gunfighting side. His point is that shooting becomes a martial art when you treat the gun as a fighting tool, not just something for punching holes in paper. The skill is in the timing, movement, accuracy, tactics, decision-making, and being able to put all of that together under pressure. Just because the weapon is a modern pistol instead of a sword doesn’t somehow make it less martial.

• Gabe White comes at it more from the performance/competition side. Same basic idea, just a different angle. You’re constantly refining vision, timing, movement, consistency, and execution under pressure, and competition gives you a pretty objective way to test and sharpen those skills.

Different paths, same point: it’s not really the weapon that makes something a martial art. It’s the disciplined development and application of the skill behind it.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I will give you that - on our side, an SVP/EVP has the final say....




Yeah, my definition may be a little loose because I’m focused less on the weapon and more on the skill built around it.

Different weapons require different levels of skill, but difficulty alone doesn’t define a martial art. A punch is mechanically simple too; boxing is martial because of the timing, movement, distance, control, and decision-making developed around it.




That said, I was looking to some good references, and the two Gabes came to mind. One from the tactical/defensive world, the other from competition -

• Gabriel Suarez comes at it more from the gunfighting side. His point is that shooting becomes a martial art when you treat the gun as a fighting tool, not just something for punching holes in paper. The skill is in the timing, movement, accuracy, tactics, decision-making, and being able to put all of that together under pressure. Just because the weapon is a modern pistol instead of a sword doesn’t somehow make it less martial.

• Gabe White comes at it more from the performance/competition side. Same basic idea, just a different angle. You’re constantly refining vision, timing, movement, consistency, and execution under pressure, and competition gives you a pretty objective way to test and sharpen those skills.

Different paths, same point: it’s not really the weapon that makes something a martial art. It’s the disciplined development and application of the skill behind it.

Okay, I agree with that. Used as a martial weapon (especially close quarters), it can be a martial art. I still think a rifle doesn't lend itself to this criteria, but a handgun certainly can. So, perhaps there's still a line somewhere. Either way, good debate for a Friday evening.

 

[rodralig]

Okay, I agree with that. Used as a martial weapon, it can be a martial art. I still think a rifle doesn't lend itself to this criteria, but a handgun certainly can. So, perhaps there's still a line somewhere. Either way, good debate for a Friday evening.

Likewise. Good discussion.