Open AB-1263 - Online sale ban - I changed the title because it was too clickbaity.

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Hey, so how is thing going to affect us in the parts classifieds for buyers and sellers?

 

[M_N04H]

Hey, so how is thing going to affect us in the parts classifieds for buyers and sellers?

Now this I was wondering

 

[couragewolf]

Just a wild idea to get a ton of traffic for this place:

How about @ikeo1 and staff create some sort of verification tool that allows for the independent checking of IDs? Then the email address that is used gets some sort of revokable token that outside venders can use an API call to make sure they can ship to the address. I'd pay $10 a year to make that happen. Imagine all the shops saying "Go to CAGuns.net and create your CAGunID Account to have parts shipped directly to your residence."

A much better way to do this is with DId, kyc addresses and homomorphic encryption like zama

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

This law is addressed or affects Business to Consumer B2C, not Consumer to Consumer C2C.

We use other methods of payment that already verifies our identity that Visa and Mastercard, etc., would not so easily able to, I would think that alone is sufficient enough between 2 parties to verify the identities of the traders.

or FTF, which DL can easily be verified if need be.

I ain't a lawyer, but loophole looker.

 

[star.3d]

This law is addressed or affects Business to Consumer B2C, not Consumer to Consumer C2C.

This isn't correct. AB1263 regulates "Firearm industry members", which likely includes private sales and the used market.

3273.50 (f) “Firearm industry member” shall mean a person, firm, corporation, company, partnership, society, joint stock company, or any other entity or association engaged in the manufacture, distribution, importation, marketing, wholesale sale, or retail sale of firearm-related products.

In addition to verifying the buyer is over 18 (and not willfully selling to prohibited buyers), the seller would have to notify and receive acknowledgement from the buyer as follows (you could use the CRPA form for this):

(2) The notice described in paragraph (1) shall clearly notify the prospective purchaser that it is generally a crime in California to engage in any of the following conduct without a valid license to manufacture firearms:
(A) Manufacturing more than three firearms per calendar year in California.
(B) Manufacturing a firearm using a three-dimensional printer or CNC milling machine.
(C) Manufacturing a firearm for the purpose of selling or transferring ownership of that firearm to another individual who is not licensed to manufacture firearms.
(D) Manufacturing a firearm for the purpose of selling, loaning, or transferring that firearm, with the intent to complete the sale, loan, or transfer without a required background check initiated by a licensed firearms dealer.
(E) Allowing, facilitating, aiding, or abetting the manufacture of a firearm by a person who is legally prohibited from possessing firearms.
(F) Manufacturing, or causing the manufacture of, assault weapons, machineguns, undetectable firearms, unserialized firearms, unsafe handguns that are not on the Department of Justice roster of handguns certified for sale in California, or other generally prohibited weapons.

In my opinion, there is no legal liability to CAguns.net from AB1263... The above could likely be disclaimed in the user agreements and that's that.

 

[axhoaxho]

AB1263 is so confusing, and I have so many questions...

For example, if I would like to order a Glock Gen3 upper parts kit (same factory parts as in my Glock, not enhancing anything,) would it still fall under the AB1263?

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

This isn't correct. AB1263 regulates "Firearm industry members", which likely includes private sales and the used market.

In addition to verifying the buyer is over 18 (and not willfully selling to prohibited buyers), the seller would have to notify and receive acknowledgement from the buyer as follows (you could use the CRPA form for this):

In my opinion, there is no legal liability to CAguns.net from AB1263... The above could likely be disclaimed in the user agreements and that's that.

Firearm industry member.

I am a consumer, not in any firearm industries.

Firearm industry member is the keyword. Otherwise they would have worded any gunowner, citizen, resident, etc.

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

Look at all other CA laws pertaining a ban or gun-control. What does and doesn't say? All CA residents or all firearm industry members. I'm going to guess it's the former without looking at every single one.

I'd like to hear counterarguments, if any to what I have stated.

 

[star.3d]

Everything I quoted above is from AB1263. You're not a consumer if you're selling regulated firearm parts, including "firearm accessories" - California will consider you a firearm industry member under §3273.50. I'm not saying it's likely you'll be prosecuted - for sure not - but you could be, and that's why this law blows. It makes a new class of criminal out of all of us. Liability as a classified seller could also come in under §29186 (also AB1263), particularly as it pertains to the manufacture of assault weapons:

(a) It is unlawful to knowingly or willfully cause another person to engage in the unlawful manufacture of firearms, or to knowingly or willfully aid, abet, promote, or facilitate the unlawful manufacture of firearms.

(b) For the purposes of this section, the “unlawful manufacture of firearms” includes any of the following:
...
(6) The manufacture of any of the following:
(A) Assault weapons or .50 BMG rifles, in violation of Section 30600.

It's not just about ID checks and shipping restrictions... but the above is why no retailer is going to sell you a magazine anymore without an ID check and an attestation that you won't use that magazine to assemble an assault weapon. Could CAguns.net come under scrutiny for "aiding" or "facilitating" the unlawful manufacture of firearms? Yes. And so the site should just disclaim against this so it's not willful. Same goes for private sellers.

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

Everything I quoted above is from AB1263. You're not a consumer if you're selling regulated firearm parts, including "firearm accessories" - California will consider you a firearm industry member under §3273.50. I'm not saying it's likely you'll be prosecuted - for sure not - but you could be, and that's why this law blows. It makes a new class of criminal out of all of us. Liability as a classified seller could also come in under §29186 (also AB1263), particularly as it pertains to the manufacture of assault weapons:


It's not just about ID checks and shipping restrictions... but the above is why no retailer is going to sell you a magazine anymore without an ID check and an attestation that you won't use that magazine to assemble an assault weapon. Could CAguns.net come under scrutiny for "aiding" or "facilitating" the unlawful manufacture of firearms? Yes. And so the site should just disclaim against this so it's not willful. Same goes for private sellers.

You are overthinking it.

Crpa form states customers. I am not a business hence I do not have customers.
And I am not a manufacturer.

Thus concludes I am not a firearm industry member.

Assault weapons are already regulated in CA. No one is making a assault weapon in CA even with a magazine ordered before this law, so no one (private party, individuals) is actually a manufacturer of assault weapons anyways.

 

[ikeo1]

You are overthinking it.

It’s better to overthink than to under think in this situation.

Yes. And so the site should just disclaim against this so it's not willful. Same goes for private sellers.

We will be adding to our disclaimer in the checkboxes when creating a listing that specifically calls out [AB-1263] that you affirm you are in compliance with the terms and that you understand you accept responsibility for the listing. We already do not allow any files for transfer.

We’ll see what else comes up as the result of this. We don’t require payments for any listings and don’t sell anything other than access to forum tools. For us here, it would be great if we could work with the CA gov’t on this so we can be compliant. That’s the best way for us to operate.

 

[cali_jazz]

Look at all other CA laws pertaining a ban or gun-control. What does and doesn't say? All CA residents or all firearm industry members. I'm going to guess it's the former without looking at every single one.

I'd like to hear counterarguments, if any to what I have stated.

I agree with this. From what I've read "Firearm Industry Members" refers to people regularly engaged in the BUSINESS of manufacturing, selling, distributing.etc. as laid out in the Firearm Industry Responsibility Act. It's hard to imagine regular consumers would be included in the new law.

Key regulations and requirements

• Firearm Industry Responsibility Act: This law sets a standard of conduct for those in the firearm industry, including manufacturers, distributors, and sellers.
• Standard of conduct: Members must take reasonable precautions to prevent the sale of firearms to straw purchasers, prohibited persons, or those at risk of using the product to cause harm.
• Prohibition of abnormally dangerous products: A firearm industry member cannot manufacture, market, or sell a product that is considered abnormally dangerous and likely to create an unreasonable risk of harm to public health and safety.
• Mandatory warnings: Buyers must be given clear warnings that it is a crime to make more than three firearms a year without a license or to make or sell guns without a license and background checks.
• Lawsuits: California law allows individuals and local governments to sue firearm industry members for harm caused by their products if they violate the standard of conduct.
• Marketing: It is a crime for a member to market firearm-related products in a way that is designed to appeal to minors.
• Licensing: Firearm industry members must obtain and maintain several licenses and permits, including a Federal Firearms License (FFL), a state-issued Certificate of Eligibility (COE), a Seller's Permit, and any required local business licenses.
• Ghost guns: The state has laws in place to regulate the manufacturing of "ghost guns" and has created a civil action against individuals who distribute digital manufacturing codes to those without the proper federal license.

Of course I could be completely wrong. Not a lawyer, not legal advice.

 

[5ForFighting]

For us here, it would be great if we could work with the CA gov’t on this so we can be compliant. That’s the best way for us to operate.

Gross

 

[ikeo1]

Gross

I know it sucks but laws are what keep us civilized and differentiate us from anarchists. Mainly, we don't want to be shutdown. There's a lot of lawfare going on and people are not shy about it these days.

We'll do it the old fashioned way...

 

[Sloat]

This isn't correct. AB1263 regulates "Firearm industry members", which likely includes private sales and the used market.

(f) “Firearm industry member” shall mean a person, firm, corporation, company, partnership, society, joint stock company, or any other entity or association engaged in the manufacture, distribution, importation, marketing, wholesale sale, or retail sale of firearm-related products.

Bill Text - AB-1263 Firearms: ghost guns.

None of us plebs are engaged in wholesale sale (i.e. selling pallets of parts to Turners) or retail sales (i.e. operating our own storefronts).
The bill appears crafted to explicitly exclude end-users performing private sales.

 

[star.3d]

I agree with this. From what I've read "Firearm Industry Members" refers to people regularly engaged in the BUSINESS of manufacturing, selling, distributing.etc. as laid out in the Firearm Industry Responsibility Act. It's hard to imagine regular consumers would be included in the new law.

Nowhere in the definition does it say "business". The definition you cited is the AB1263 definition I posted above (§3273.50), so we're going in a circle here. @Sloat Here's the specific situation I'm contending applies to classified ad sales:

(f) “Firearm industry member” shall mean a person ... engaged in the ... distribution, importation, marketing ... of firearm-related products.

Let's imagine I go to NV and buy a truckload of AR15 parts (except barrels) and bring them back and sell them here on the classifieds. By your and 556s's proposal, I'm in the clear, because I'm not a business. What about if I put it in the mail? Am I still in the clear? (The answer is no - I'm importing, marketing, and distributing. And when I put in the mail, I'm also in violation of 3273.51(e)(3))

Keep in mind, a misdemeanor violation under §29186 results in a 10yr suspension from owning a firearm.

§29805 (h) Any person, who is convicted on or after January 1, 2026, of a misdemeanor violation of Section 24610, 27530, 29185, 29186, 30605, 30610, 32900, 33215, or 33600, and who, within 10 years of the conviction, owns, purchases, receives, or has in their possession or under their custody or control any firearm, is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, by a fine not exceeding one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

 

[Motion122]

Hey, so how is thing going to affect us in the parts classifieds for buyers and sellers?

If the barrel must be purchased at an FFL, that will apply to a private sale as well.

 

[Sloat]

Here's the specific situation I'm contending applies to classified ad sales:

Let's imagine I go to NV and buy a truckload of AR15 parts (except barrels) and bring them back and sell them here on the classifieds. By your and 556s's proposal, I'm in the clear, because I'm not a business. What about if I put it in the mail? Am I still in the clear? (The answer is no - I'm importing, marketing, and distributing. And when I put in the mail, I'm also in violation of 3273.51(e)(3))

THIS is what you're concerned about? I agree with you, I do NOT think you're in the clear because you ARE a business now. You are engaged in retail sale as a sole proprietor. Your clear intent (according to this hypothetical) was to buy goods at wholesale, import them, and re-sell them to consumers with the intention of making a profit - aka business activity. Mail has nothing to do with it.

You're clearly NOT buying accessories for your own enjoyment and then disposing of them when you upgrade or get tired of them or trading for different stuff - aka what most of us do on here.

 

[star.3d]

Your clear intent (according to this hypothetical) was to buy goods at wholesale, import them, and re-sell them to consumers with the intention of making a profit - aka business activity. Mail has nothing to do with it.

You can poke holes in it - that's fine. But what number of transactions, then, tips from consumer to business? I think you're looking for a distinction that this law really doesn't make.

Mail does matter, because AB1263 specifically restricts how firearm parts can be delivered by mail - that's the signature and ID check part under 3273.51(e)(3).

 

[star.3d]

THIS is what you're concerned about?

Here's another straw man. After 1/1/26, am I okay to sell parts to a minor via the classifieds, since according to your logic I'm a consumer and not a business?