Czs and Glocks vs p320s

[AR15barrels]

The red lines aren't comprehensive, they don't say anything about V or 6

The red lines also do not say anything about Gen 3, because they are rostered.
So it goes to say that Gen V and 6 Austrian guns should be too because they are not specifically excluded like 1-2 and 4-5 and USA made Glocks are.

 

[weaverftw]

I don't know if Glock USA has imported any Gen V or Gen 6 from Austria yet.

Are they producing them there, and any plans known to import them from there or is this all just theoretical?

 

[Deleted member 16735]

The red lines also do not say anything about Gen 3, because they are rostered.
So it goes to say that Gen V and 6 Austrian guns should be too because they are not specifically excluded like 1-2 and 4-5 and USA made Glocks are.

I see why you would think that based on how they wrote it but you definitely can't buy any Glocks after July 1 until they get put onto the roster.

 

[AR15barrels]

I see why you would think that based on how they wrote it but you definitely can't buy any Glocks after July 1 until they get put onto the roster.

It may be because they have not imported any Austrian Gen V or Gen 6.

 

[AR15barrels]

Are they producing them there, and any plans known to import them from there or is this all just theoretical?

All the Gen 6 GLocks I have handled were USA produced and certainly off roster because they are USA made.
I read that Austria is producing Gen 6 but I do not know if Glock USA has imported any Austrian Gen V or Gen 6 or not.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I think a 22 rifle such at the 10-22 is great to start with. As for the pistol, really depends what you want to do with it. I’d prefer a G19 over a G26 myself as I think the G19 is a bit more versatile. If concealed carry is an option, I think the Sig P365 is an awesome platform and very soft shooting (similar to G19 in recoil in the smallest version). The P365 has several sizes that can be swapped out once you have one.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

It may be because they have not imported any Austrian Gen V or Gen 6.

It's not, they aren't on the roster. The way they worded that notice on the website is just misleading.

 

[cobian1984]

All the Gen 6 GLocks I have handled were USA produced and certainly off roster because they are USA made.
I read that Austria is producing Gen 6 but I do not know if Glock USA has imported any Austrian Gen V or Gen 6 or not.

GlockStore is advertising some Austrian made G49.6s for sale on its website. By that logic, they should be able to sell those to CA civilian customers and ship to CA FFLs to facilitate the transfers, which the FFL certainly will not, because those G6 pistols are not specifically listed on the roster.

 

[AR15barrels]

GlockStore is advertising some Austrian made G49.6s for sale on its website. By that logic, they should be able to sell those to CA civilian customers and ship to CA FFLs to facilitate the transfers, which the FFL certainly will not, because those G6 pistols are not specifically listed on the roster.

Only if the glock 49 is listed on the roster.
No generations of glocks are listed on the roster.
Only model numbers are listed.
Gen 1/2/4/5 and USA made glocks are specificly excluded from the roster.
That means that listed models that are NOT made in the USA and are NOT generation 1/2/4/5 should be legal to transfer through the end of June.

 

[Gawernator]

Yall think it’s kind of messed up they eliminated czs and Glocks from the roster, I own a p320 m18 and I honestly like it (I don’t carry it). California just seems odd to push and keep the 320s on roster with “safety concerns”. I no longer buy new guns as I refuse to pay the tax anymore. Just a little rant.

Think you answered your own question. In actual real life and laboratory tests the P320 always passes tests and exams (at least since the 2017 fix LOL), the rest is just internet drama and rumors with no factual basis. It's just like how everyone said "Glock leg" in the 80's to 00's. FUDD, essentially. I used to be on the P320 hate train as an edgy kid but realized we have no incidents really with the millions they've made, and the one big incident was actually manslaughter. I picked up a M18 yesterday and it shoots so well. I like it more than the M9 we used to use.

 

[weaverftw]

Think you answered your own question. In actual real life and laboratory tests the P320 always passes tests and exams (at least since the 2017 fix LOL), the rest is just internet drama and rumors with no factual basis. It's just like how everyone said "Glock leg" in the 80's to 00's. FUDD, essentially. I used to be on the P320 hate train as an edgy kid but realized we have no incidents really with the millions they've made, and the one big incident was actually manslaughter. I picked up a M18 yesterday and it shoots so well. I like it more than the M9 we used to use.

Yeah every video I’ve seen of “evidence” shows someone fiddling with the holster or something, these people also seem to refuse to submit the guns in question to testing. I have no doubt it’s mostly people who have replaced so many fire control components it’s not even really a p320 anymore, or they made a big dumb oopsie with their finger or object in the holster. Still waiting for video of a gun going off without being touched/actively holstered

 

[cobian1984]

Only if the glock 49 is listed on the roster.
No generations of glocks are listed on the roster.
Only model numbers are listed.
Gen 1/2/4/5 and USA made glocks are specificly excluded from the roster.
That means that listed models that are NOT made in the USA and are NOT generation 1/2/4/5 should be legal to transfer through the end of June.

Ah, I’m following your logic now, my bad. So if someone managed to import an Austrian-made G17.6, technically it would be legal to sell brand new to civilians in CA since it’s not banned by name and would fit the very generic on-roster description for a G17.

 

[Gawernator]

Yeah every video I’ve seen of “evidence” shows someone fiddling with the holster or something, these people also seem to refuse to submit the guns in question to testing. I have no doubt it’s mostly people who have replaced so many fire control components it’s not even really a p320 anymore, or they made a big dumb oopsie with their finger or object in the holster. Still waiting for video of a gun going off without being touched/actively holstered

There's that one with the latina cop walking through a parking lot and it suddenly goes off in the holster, weirdly she is carrying a ton of stuff with her also. So did she have something in the holster or...? Bizarre. But there is usually more to the story, and there are way more Glock stories yet Glock is safe

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Yeah every video I’ve seen of “evidence” shows someone fiddling with the holster or something, these people also seem to refuse to submit the guns in question to testing. I have no doubt it’s mostly people who have replaced so many fire control components it’s not even really a p320 anymore, or they made a big dumb oopsie with their finger or object in the holster. Still waiting for video of a gun going off without being touched/actively holstered

There's several videos that show a p320 going off in the holster, there's just too many accounts for it to not be a real thing

https://www.modbee.com/news/local/article309984160.html

P320 "Unintentional Discharge" Video (more...

This video was from the Montville, CT police department. It appears to show a P320 discharging while holstered. Without interaction. You all know I love my P320's. But I have to admit that this was at the very least, an interesting video: Let me know your thoughts! -MP

www.sigtalk.com

 

[21SF 2.0]

Think you answered your own question. In actual real life and laboratory tests the P320 always passes tests and exams (at least since the 2017 fix LOL), the rest is just internet drama and rumors with no factual basis. It's just like how everyone said "Glock leg" in the 80's to 00's. FUDD, essentially. I used to be on the P320 hate train as an edgy kid but realized we have no incidents really with the millions they've made, and the one big incident was actually manslaughter. I picked up a M18 yesterday and it shoots so well. I like it more than the M9 we used to use.

This is sig fan boy cope 100%

 

[weaverftw]

There's several videos that show a p320 going off in the holster, there's just too many accounts for it to not be a real thing

https://www.modbee.com/news/local/article309984160.html

P320 "Unintentional Discharge" Video (more...

This video was from the Montville, CT police department. It appears to show a P320 discharging while holstered. Without interaction. You all know I love my P320's. But I have to admit that this was at the very least, an interesting video: Let me know your thoughts! -MP

www.sigtalk.com

I’ll watch the whole thing, but so far the first video 30 seconds in shows a guy walking and fiddling with the front of his shirt/pants/belt right before he reacts to the gun going off. This is what I’ve seen in every video that has been presented so far - I’ll bet he had a bit of his shirt stuffed into the holster and when he pulled his shirt up it tripped the trigger or something.

I’m not saying this doesn’t happen, but I think it’s not as simple as “something is wrong with the factory sig p320 that makes them magically go off on their own”. I think most of these people likely fiddled with the trigger mechanism (and maybe there’s an inherent risk with a highly modular gun with aftermarket accessories being installed that may have differing tolerances), and are carrying around a gun with a really light and short travel trigger. That makes them inherently more likely to go boom if anything touches the trigger.

I don’t own a p320 and probably wouldn’t carry one as it’s not worth the tiny risk, but my current position is that it’s most likely use error. The gun might be more susceptible to user error than say a Glock, but we also heard the same thing about Glock leg and how they’re more dangerous than, say, a DA sig or cz. There’s a deference between a defect/bug and a feature - a short light crisp trigger is a feature that happens to be more susceptible to a ND which is why we see more of them with this gun (which is also wildly popular so there is also a numbers game going on, coupled with social media blowing things out of proportion for clicks).

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I’ll watch the whole thing, but so far the first video 30 seconds in shows a guy walking and fiddling with the front of his shirt/pants/belt right before he reacts to the gun going off. This is what I’ve seen in every video that has been presented so far - I’ll bet he had a bit of his shirt stuffed into the holster and when he pulled his shirt up it tripped the trigger or something.

I’m not saying this doesn’t happen, but I think it’s not as simple as “something is wrong with the factory sig p320 that makes them magically go off on their own”. I think most of these people likely fiddled with the trigger mechanism (and maybe there’s an inherent risk with a highly modular gun with aftermarket accessories being installed that may have differing tolerances), and are carrying around a gun with a really light and short travel trigger. That makes them inherently more likely to go boom if anything touches the trigger.

I don’t own a p320 and probably wouldn’t carry one as it’s not worth the tiny risk, but my current position is that it’s most likely use error. The gun might be more susceptible to user error than say a Glock, but we also heard the same thing about Glock leg and how they’re more dangerous than, say, a DA sig or cz. There’s a deference between a defect/bug and a feature - a short light crisp trigger is a feature that happens to be more susceptible to a ND which is why we see more of them with this gun (which is also wildly popular so there is also a numbers game going on, coupled with social media blowing things out of proportion for clicks).

There's no such thing as "user error" for a gun going off without pulling the trigger. you should be able to throw your gun at a wall and it should never go off. I carry an m&p with a light modified trigger and I've never heard of any m&p going off in the holster ever, a big difference between basically every other striker fired gun and the p320 is the 320 has no trigger dingus so it could be possible that just through movement and not actually pressing the trigger that the trigger is pressed enough to go off. Every other gun including Glock requires that trigger dingus to be manipulated. There's no evidence that any of the p320s that went off had aftermarket triggers so to assume that is dangerous. The bottom line is that no other gun has hundreds of reports and lawsuits in the modern age, people always talk about "glock leg" and yet there aren't hundreds of people reporting that Glock leg is happening. Glock leg is likely what you are assuming, user error based on people using leather holsters, no holsters, not understanding that the gun has no external safety outside of the trigger. It's not really a thing anymore though because people know how to operate them. If people really just hate Sigs then why is no one reporting the p365 going off in the holster? I do think the issue is very rare, but there are so many reports of p320s going off and videos like the ones above where you can clearly see that no one is touching the trigger, that I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole. The worst part of all is Sig trying to just deny it's an issue, I'll never buy a Sig product just based on that alone. Until there's an actual explanation for hundreds of reports of discharges it's irresponsible to downplay the issue, it's literally life or death.

 

[wajalama]

People keep saying "Glock leg" as if that wasn't the era when striker fired handguns were still a new thing and everyone eventually adapted to handling them properly holstered. Makes no sense as to how this is happening again with only P320's now, doesn't add up. You don't hear this happening now with Glocks, CZ's, M&P's, Walther, HK, etc; only Sig.

The fact that there is abundant evidence that the P320 platform was just a lazily shoehorned design derived from the P250 just makes it even worse.

Edit: lmao another one

 

[weaverftw]

There's no such thing as "user error" for a gun going off without pulling the trigger.

Agree; the problem is that in every video I’ve seen it looks like the person was doing something that could have pulled the trigger (shirt caught in trigger guard in the above video for example).

you should be able to throw your gun at a wall and it should never go off.

This is your opinion; there are plenty of guns that aren’t drop safe in this way. Lots of guns will go bang if you tap the back of the slide with a hammer. A CZ killed an RO at a ISPSA match when the shooter dropped it. (I agree with your opinion, I won’t carry a gun that isn’t drop safe, I’m just saying not all guns are).

I carry an m&p with a light modified trigger and I've never heard of any m&p going off in the holster ever, a big difference between basically every other striker fired gun and the p320 is the 320 has no trigger dingus so it could be possible that just through movement and not actually pressing the trigger that the trigger is pressed enough to go off. Every other gun including Glock requires that trigger dingus to be manipulated.

I agree that a trigger dingus would likely have prevented most of these occurrences; maybe not all, but it seems a prudent design to prevent the trigger being actuated when dropped or from objects pushing on the trigger in irregular ways (keys in holster, shirt caught in trigger guard, etc).

There's no evidence that any of the p320s that went off had aftermarket triggers so to assume that is dangerous.

There’s no evidence any of them had factory triggers. Why haven’t these people produced the guns for testing or sent to sig? Or to an independent lab if they’re conspiracy minded? The gun is appealing for its modularity which lends itself to modifications, so I think it’s a safe assumption that lots of folks modify their guns.

The bottom line is that no other gun has hundreds of reports and lawsuits in the modern age, people always talk about "glock leg" and yet there aren't hundreds of people reporting that Glock leg is happening. Glock leg is likely what you are assuming, user error based on people using leather holsters, no holsters, not understanding that the gun has no external safety outside of the trigger. It's not really a thing anymore though because people know how to operate them.

I think this is the exact same thing as Glock leg. People being unused to carrying a gun with a new design (in Glocks case, a striker fired pistol with no manual safety, in this case one with a MUCH shorter and lighter trigger pull) and while people “got used to” the Glocks, with a trigger like the p320 there is much less room for error as it’ll go off more easily from pressure being applied to the trigger.

If people really just hate Sigs then why is no one reporting the p365 going off in the holster?

Because the p365 has a much longer and heavier trigger pull. My p365 is WAY longer of a pull than any of the p320s I’ve shot.

I do think the issue is very rare, but there are so many reports of p320s going off and videos like the ones above where you can clearly see that no one is touching the trigger, that I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.

Eeeeeh I mean sure, no one is touching the trigger with their trigger finger, but the videos I’ve seen all show someone messing around with the holster, actively plastering or handling the gun, etc so there is always the potential that they inadvertently touched the trigger with an object (keys, clothes, piece of an incorrectly fitting holster, etc etc).

If the guns just magically go off without the trigger being pulled, why is there NOT ONE VIDEO of one going off while someone is just standing there NOT touching the gun or holster? Surely there would be by now.

The worst part of all is Sig trying to just deny it's an issue, I'll never buy an Sig product just based on that alone. Until there's an actual explanation for hundreds of reports of discharges it's irresponsible to downplay the issue, it's literally life or death.

I think there’s two possibilities. 90% likelihood it’s just Glock leg 2.0, exacerbated by the fact that the triggers have a really short pre-travel and often are modified to be lighter. And no dingus. 10% likelihood that there is something fundamentally wrong with the design that somehow only crops up in a tiny fraction of guns due to dumb luck of tolerance stacking or something. Making it really hard to replicate. Gee wouldn’t it be nice if the people this happened to submitted their guns for testing so we could figure that out?

The 10% is totally possible, and it’s the reason I won’t buy one, but I lean towards the other explanation. People who do something stupid and hurt themselves don’t want to admit it, so they blame the gun and try to get some money for it. We’re an extremely litigious society and people see their as their chance to make some money. This is compounded by social media clickbait. And cameras are everywhere now. Once the narrative is in place, it’s like the first-mover advantage in business, it just takes off and others hop on the train of anything happens with their p320.

NDs DO happen with other guns. Do we have statistics on the number of different models in circulation and the # of reported discharges? Or is this just all based on a handful of videos that all show someone fiddling with their pants before shooting themselves in the nuts?

If you’re right, F- Sig and how they’ve handled it. If you’re not, I feel really bad for them. Even I, who take this 90/10 view, won’t buy one just in case, so I can’t imagine how much it’s hurt their business, and they make a lot of great guns.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Agree; the problem is that in every video I’ve seen it looks like the person was doing something that could have pulled the trigger (shirt caught in trigger guard in the above video for example).



This is your opinion; there are plenty of guns that aren’t drop safe in this way. Lots of guns will go bang if you tap the back of the slide with a hammer. A CZ killed an RO at a ISPSA match when the shooter dropped it. (I agree with your opinion, I won’t carry a gun that isn’t drop safe, I’m just saying not all guns are).




I agree that a trigger dingus would likely have prevented most of these occurrences; maybe not all, but it seems a prudent design to prevent the trigger being actuated when dropped or from objects pushing on the trigger in irregular ways (keys in holster, shirt caught in trigger guard, etc).




There’s no evidence any of them had factory triggers. Why haven’t these people produced the guns for testing or sent to sig? Or to an independent lab if they’re conspiracy minded? The gun is appealing for its modularity which lends itself to modifications, so I think it’s a safe assumption that lots of folks modify their guns.



I think this is the exact same thing as Glock leg. People being unused to carrying a gun with a new design (in Glocks case, a striker fired pistol with no manual safety, in this case one with a MUCH shorter and lighter trigger pull) and while people “got used to” the Glocks, with a trigger like the p320 there is much less room for error as it’ll go off more easily from pressure being applied to the trigger.



Because the p365 has a much longer and heavier trigger pull. My p365 is WAY longer of a pull than any of the p320s I’ve shot.



Eeeeeh I mean sure, no one is touching the trigger with their trigger finger, but the videos I’ve seen all show someone messing around with the holster, actively plastering or handling the gun, etc so there is always the potential that they inadvertently touched the trigger with an object (keys, clothes, piece of an incorrectly fitting holster, etc etc).

If the guns just magically go off without the trigger being pulled, why is there NOT ONE VIDEO of one going off while someone is just standing there NOT touching the gun or holster? Surely there would be by now.



I think there’s two possibilities. 90% likelihood it’s just Glock leg 2.0, exacerbated by the fact that the triggers have a really short pre-travel and often are modified to be lighter. And no dingus. 10% likelihood that there is something fundamentally wrong with the design that somehow only crops up in a tiny fraction of guns due to dumb luck of tolerance stacking or something. Making it really hard to replicate. Gee wouldn’t it be nice if the people this happened to submitted their guns for testing so we could figure that out?

The 10% is totally possible, and it’s the reason I won’t buy one, but I lean towards the other explanation. People who do something stupid and hurt themselves don’t want to admit it, so they blame the gun and try to get some money for it. We’re an extremely litigious society and people see their as their chance to make some money. This is compounded by social media clickbait. And cameras are everywhere now. Once the narrative is in place, it’s like the first-mover advantage in business, it just takes off and others hop on the train of anything happens with their p320.

NDs DO happen with other guns. Do we have statistics on the number of different models in circulation and the # of reported discharges? Or is this just all based on a handful of videos that all show someone fiddling with their pants before shooting themselves in the nuts?

If you’re right, F- Sig and how they’ve handled it. If you’re not, I feel really bad for them. Even I, who take this 90/10 view, won’t buy one just in case, so I can’t imagine how much it’s hurt their business, and they make a lot of great guns.

take a look at the other two video, one is the Ceres cop approaching her vehicle, maybe her bag grazes the gun? and the other is an officer bending over grabbing a suspect. The latter you can clearly see there is no shirt in the holster. If anything happened it was something brushed the outside of the holster. That's not ok, like I said you should be able to throw your gun at the wall as hard as you can, loaded, and it does not go off. brushing against a holster is not pulling the trigger. If it's really just a matter of "the trigger is too easy to pull" then that in and of itself is a problem and Sig should address it. Plenty of other guns have short travel triggers and don't go off by brushing the holster. Find literally any other reports for other guns like the p320, there aren't any. And as far as testing and reports, I promise you that stuff has happened but Sig has paid people to settle out of court. There were several first hand videos that used to be on youtube that have disappeared. One from a central valley USPSA shooter. Those people got paid by Sig to "forget" about the incidents.