Delayed by DOJ 30 days

[mrbieler]

Going through this right now. It’s ridiculous. I bought a gun back in March and in mid April completed my live scan with DOJ, firearms and FBI background checks. Then last week I make another purchase and I get the 30 day note.

Complete insanity. I’ve been buying and selling guns in California since 1992.

 

[RickD427]

A lot of comments in this thread discuss the status of the buyer in relation to getting a delay/undetermined response from DOJ.

But delay/undetermined responses are quite often caused by factors unrelated to the buyer, and beyond the buyer's control.

All through my LE career, I've had to sort through automated criminal history records ("Rap Sheets"). That's not a simple task. Rap sheet records are not universally maintained, and the quality control over records varies considerably between agencies. An agency is supposed to create a record when a person is arrested, update the record when a charging decision is made, and then update again when the case is closed. Those updates don't always get made. I've seen a lot of court cases pending since the 60's.

Add to that the fact that many folks have similar names and descriptions, and that some folks use another's identity when booked. California requires a fingerprint ID to create a booking record, but many states believe whatever an arrestee tells them.

The net result is that if I run a criminal history check on Pedro Martinez (DOB: 01-30-1990) with an address of 123 Main St. in Ventura, I may get a return showing a felony to Pedro Martinez-Gutierrez with a DOB of 02-30-1990.

That begins the process of "deconflicting" the rap sheet return. That's usually done by examining other records concerning the subject. I'll go to other databases to see if Mr. Martinez has a middle name of Gutierrez recorded. I'll also examine the source of the record showing the February 30th birthdate. Many computer systems require a "Month-Day-Year" input, and the nice booking officer may only know the approximate age of the arrestee. A lot of agencies "dummy up" a DOB in such cases by using the February 30th date. At some point, after looking at all of the available records, I gotta make a decision if the rap sheet actually belongs to the subject I'm looking at, and that decision often involves conflicting information. It's a subjective decision and different reviewers may make different decisions from the same information.

A lot of folks do not like putting their SSN on the Form 4473 (it's optional) based on privacy reasons. The SSN does not get used in a comparison of the primary records used to compile criminal histories, but it does often appear in the collateral records that may be accessed to deconflict a criminal history record.

 

[Gawernator]

A lot of comments in this thread discuss the status of the buyer in relation to getting a delay/undetermined response from DOJ.

But delay/undetermined responses are quite often caused by factors unrelated to the buyer, and beyond the buyer's control.

All through my LE career, I've had to sort through automated criminal history records ("Rap Sheets"). That's not a simple task. Rap sheet records are not universally maintained, and the quality control over records varies considerably between agencies. An agency is supposed to create a record when a person is arrested, update the record when a charging decision is made, and then update again when the case is closed. Those updates don't always get made. I've seen a lot of court cases pending since the 60's.

Add to that the fact that many folks have similar names and descriptions, and that some folks use another's identity when booked. California requires a fingerprint ID to create a booking record, but many states believe whatever an arrestee tells them.

The net result is that if I run a criminal history check on Pedro Martinez (DOB: 01-30-1990) with an address of 123 Main St. in Ventura, I may get a return showing a felony to Pedro Martinez-Gutierrez with a DOB of 02-30-1990.

That begins the process of "deconflicting" the rap sheet return. That's usually done by examining other records concerning the subject. I'll go to other databases to see if Mr. Martinez has a middle name of Gutierrez recorded. I'll also examine the source of the record showing the February 30th birthdate. Many computer systems require a "Month-Day-Year" input, and the nice booking officer may only know the approximate age of the arrestee. A lot of agencies "dummy up" a DOB in such cases by using the February 30th date. At some point, after looking at all of the available records, I gotta make a decision if the rap sheet actually belongs to the subject I'm looking at, and that decision often involves conflicting information. It's a subjective decision and different reviewers may make different decisions from the same information.

A lot of folks do not like putting their SSN on the Form 4473 (it's optional) based on privacy reasons. The SSN does not get used in a comparison of the primary records used to compile criminal histories, but it does often appear in the collateral records that may be accessed to deconflict a criminal history record.

Do you use any programs like IDICore, Delvepoint, CLEAR, etc?

 

[BONECUTR]

And since the actual background check is run through DOJ here and not the normal NICS check system like other states, putting your SSN down on there is pretty much worthless.

Sort of. The CADOJ is in charge of running the NICS check and not dealers like other states but a NICS check is still ran. A delay means your NICS check cleared but something came up in the states background check that is more in depth. CA Also checks:
AFS Stolen Firearm system
DMV
Criminal History
Mental Health Files
Wanted Person System
Restraining Order Systems

Since federal delays are only 3 days and CA has a 10 day wait I have never had a DROS delay over a NICS result.
You can and we will call the CADOJ for the NICS number on any DROS since the customer will need it if they are going to appear the denial to NICS.

But yes the SSN is never transmitted to CADOJ and I have never had CADOJ ask me if they put it or a UPIN on the 4473.

 

[RickD427]

Do you use any programs like IDICore, Delvepoint, CLEAR, etc?

Generally "No". Those all appear to be privately operated databases. There's at least three problems in using them for government functions: 1) They typically charge a fee, 2) To the extent that such systems contain records that fall under Part 23 of CFR Title 28, they can't be used without satisfying a bunch of procedural requirements. 3) Most importantly is the quality of the data. Public systems tend to be very incomplete, because data of poor quality is generally not entered. It's real common to find missing data, but very rare to find erroneous data. Private systems are the opposite. Their protocols encourage the inclusion of data with the result being a lot of erroneous data. I did use the Lexis/Nexis system for a few years to track down folks whose public records were not adequate to task and found the number of "false-positive" hits to be a lot higher than with the public systems.

 

[Gawernator]

Generally "No". Those all appear to be privately operated databases. There's at least three problems in using them for government functions: 1) They typically charge a fee, 2) To the extent that such systems contain records that fall under Part 23 of CFR Title 28, they can't be used without satisfying a bunch of procedural requirements. 3) Most importantly is the quality of the data. Public systems tend to be very incomplete, because data of poor quality is generally not entered. It's real common to find missing data, but very rare to find erroneous data. Private systems are the opposite. Their protocols encourage the inclusion of data with the result being a lot of erroneous data. I did use the Lexis/Nexis system for a few years to track down folks whose public records were not adequate to task and found the number of "false-positive" hits to be a lot higher than with the public systems.

Yeah Lexisnexis is another one of them, interesting. I get pretty reliable hits with delvepoint but with people that are illegal or don’t keep anything in their name or homeless it’s not that helpful. I’ve been curious how the public systems LEO use deal with people like that. I was curious because the data brokers seem to market to law enforcement too.

 

[mrbieler]

Curious how many delays get resolved in the 30 days vs processed as undetermined. I was an idiot and did not check that Cap Tactical will not release on undetermined and I'm worried the seller will not be able to get back to the shop in the time window the store gave me. It's my understanding that the shop has obligation to hold the firearm and since the seller got his money, is the buyer SOL? I submitted my recent ATI Live Scan # to the DOJ via their contact page. No idea if that will help.

 

[GoatInTheMachine]

Bigger question is do both shops release on undetermined?

I'm getting mixed info so please clarify-, one source ive read is saying it is against CA law for the gun shop to release the firearm to you if there has been no decision by the DOJ during the 30 day window, others saying if there is no movement and no approval or denial within the window that it is at the discretion of the gun shop? This just happened to me so I'm trying to get good info. Thanks.

 

[RickD427]

I'm getting mixed info so please clarify-, one source ive read is saying it is against CA law for the gun shop to release the firearm to you if there has been no decision by the DOJ during the 30 day window, others saying if there is no movement and no approval or denial within the window that it is at the discretion of the gun shop? This just happened to me so I'm trying to get good info. Thanks.

Your first source is in error. Once the 30 day window is passed, the FFL may (but is not required to) release the firearm to purchaser on an "Undetermined" return.

Please refer to Penal Code section 28220(g)(3)(A) for the specific provision allowing the FFL to release the firearm. Your first source of information would do well to familiarize themselves with section 28220(g)(3)(A), but it may be a moot point because the statute only permits them to release. It does not require them to release.

A lot of shops will inform then buyer that the transfer is illegal, just like a lot of merchants are informing buyers that certain parts cannot be sold in California, simply to avoid the headaches that can accompany such transactions. Look at how Turner's is currently getting "raked over the coals" for lawfully selling a firearm to the gentleman that most recently tried to assassinate President Trump.

 

[GoatInTheMachine]

Yeah I will do that, and that is a very good point. I was going to go with Turners at first too, kind of glad I didn't. Thanks for your help!

 

[Hit Factor]

A delay means your NICS check cleared but something came up in the states background check that is more in depth.

Not always. The only delay I ever received was because they tried to run the NICS on a Friday, a couple of days before the 10-day waiting period was up, and the system was down. They slapped a 30-day delay on it, put the file on the proverbial shelf, and went home for the weekend. Long story short: I was lucky enough to get ahold of someone at the CA DOJ the following week who figured out what had caused the delay, ran the NICS while I waited on the phone, and marked me as approved within minutes.

 

[mrbieler]

Yeah I will do that, and that is a very good point. I was going to go with Turners at first too, kind of glad I didn't. Thanks for your help!

Depends.

If you buy from Turners and become "undetermined", they will not release. If it's a PPT, their posted policy is to release to undetermined:

Firearm FAQs

Turner’s Outdoorsman | Turner's Outdoorsman gun store is conveniently located in California with a huge range of hunting, shooting and fishing gear. We are serving for last 52 years.

www.turners.com

1. I was notified that my background check status was “undetermined”; what does that mean?
   1. If the DOJ cannot determine a buyer’s eligibility, they will place a delay on the background check. Typically, those are resolved with an approval, or sometimes with an outright denial, usually within 30 days or sooner. On occasion, the DOJ cannot determine the buyer’s eligibility within 30 days; at that point the background check becomes “undetermined”.
   2. CA law permits a dealer to cancel the transaction and issue a refund or to deliver the firearm. If your background check status becomes undetermined, we will issue a refund for the firearm and will encourage you to contact CA DOJ in order to learn what created the delay/undetermined status so that you can rectify the issue in order to avoid future occurrences of the same status on future purchases.
   3. In the case of a Private Party Transfer, we will transfer a firearm to a buyer whose status is deemed undetermined.

I made a mistake and went to a local shop that won't release so now I am waiting out my 30 days to see what happens. As much as PPT's can be slow and painful at Turners, this policy was nice to see.

 

[GoatInTheMachine]

Going through this right now. It’s ridiculous. I bought a gun back in March and in mid April completed my live scan with DOJ, firearms and FBI background checks. Then last week I make another purchase and I get the 30 day note.

Complete insanity. I’ve been buying and selling guns in California since 1992.

Did you do the live scan on your own just to provide them with another form of verifying your background/identity?

 

[BONECUTR]

Not always. The only delay I ever received was because they tried to run the NICS on a Friday, a couple of days before the 10-day waiting period was up, and the system was down. They slapped a 30-day delay on it, put the file on the proverbial shelf, and went home for the weekend. Long story short: I was lucky enough to get ahold of someone at the CA DOJ the following week who figured out what had caused the delay, ran the NICS while I waited on the phone, and marked me as approved within minutes.

I'm sorry but this sounds like the most made up nonsense I have ever heard. Are you a dealer because the CADOJ will not, under any circumstance talk to you on the phone about a background check. They only correspond via in writing to the general public. They even say so if you call them on the answering service.

It have been that way for over a decade.

If I get a delay for a customer and ask the DES operators can put a message to the "firearms clearance" department but they will never get on the phone and the best I can get is a "we will email you" Now I can call and get a NICS # but that does no good unless there was a NICS delay and since the delay can only be 3 days I have never seen it come in handy.

 

[echo1]

I've had the last twelve 4473s delayed/undetermined. A total of at least 15 since Harris was AG. I just presume it's going to happen and only use shops that will release after getting burned by Target Masters in Milpitas (now out for business). I'm pretty sure what causes it, but it can't be readily resolved. As Rick mentioned the records can be muddied up. PAX

 

[mrbieler]

Did you do the live scan on your own just to provide them with another form of verifying your background/identity?

The April live scan was for my CCW.

Via the DOJ on line form under "contact us", I sent them the Live Scan ATI #, my DOB, and the DROS # that is delayed. There has been no response.

 

[Hit Factor]

I'm sorry but this sounds like the most made up nonsense I have ever heard.

And yet it’s true.

I called the main number after receiving the delay letter in the mail, and I left a message on their voicemail. Someone called me back and left a message on my voicemail. Instead of calling back the main number, I hit “call back” and someone picked it up at their desk. He said, “How did you get this number?” I told him what happened. He said, “Well, how can I help you?” I told him about the delay. He pulled it up on his computer, saw the investigator’s name, and said “Hold on, I know this guy. Let me find out what the delay is for.” He put me on hold for a few minutes, came back, and explained what had happened. While he was speaking, he ran the NICS again, and then said, “Okay, you’re approved now.” Honestly, he couldn’t have been nicer and more helpful. A short time later, I called my LGS and they pulled it up on their end, saw that it now showed approved, and said, “Come on down and pick it up.” So I did, just a few hours after speaking with the guy at the DOJ.

 

[mrbieler]

Got bored during my lunch today and called the DOJ phone # on the delay letter. They are a call center only. The women who answered said that because I purchased a firearm while in the CCW process but before final approval, it triggers an additional look into my record creating the delay but that I should expect a release before the 30 days expires. Will see if that's true or not in the next week or two.

 

[GoatInTheMachine]

The April live scan was for my CCW.

Via the DOJ on line form under "contact us", I sent them the Live Scan ATI #, my DOB, and the DROS # that is delayed. There has been no response.

Damn dude that sucks!

 

[mrbieler]

Got the call this morning I was cleared and could pick up my new gun. Will never know why they delayed me. It's possible their comment about the CCW application triggering things but just sounds a bit hinky.