Magazine Disconnect removed and Liability

[Deleted member 16735]

It was a great idea to contact your "insurer". As you posted above, they will defend you for charges relating to the SD shooting, but not for any weapons violations charges.



So, if you are involved in a shooting and you run into an asshat D.A. who decides to bring weapons charges, you are on your own financially for your defense, fines, etc. Personally, I would go out of my way to ensure that my CCW weapon is 100% compliant with all laws, just in case. This kind of can get real expensive, real fast.

Now, if you were to be the guy who saves the lives of a kindergarten full of children or a church full of congregants you'd probably not be prosecuted on weapons charges and if you were, there would be a crowd of attorneys ready to defend you pro bono, for the publicity. Short of that, you might be looking at a second mortgage.

Pretty easy to make sure it's "legal", there aren't any laws against modifying your firearms in the ways discussed here. It's even legal to remove a primary safety let alone a mag disconnect.

 

[GoldensRule]

Pretty easy to make sure it's "legal", there aren't any laws against modifying your firearms in the ways discussed here. It's even legal to remove a primary safety let alone a mag disconnect.

As long as the CCW carrier isn't relying on the advice of anonymous people in a forum as to what is legal and what isn't. The CA firearms laws are a bit of a maze and it is difficult to identify the people who have the technical and legal expertise to offer reliable advice. Then there is the matter of accidental shootings that occur as a result of modifying a weapon. From what I can tell, CCW coverage doesn't indemnify a person against accidental shootings or accidental shootings when a weapon has been modified by the user. I could be wrong.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Yeah I don't think anyone will cover you for just shooting someone on accident and that's not exactly easy to do. If that happens just turn the gun on yourself because you're a dumbass and you aren't fit to be in this world. Aside from that it's absolutely not hard to define a legal firearm.

 

[NorCalBusa]

What does one do if, on January 1 of any year, their rostered CCW gun falls off the roster? One day you're good and the next day you're bad? The roster only pertains to guns FFLs can sell.

I've been posting that since the roster came about. Doesn't seem to sink in...maybe its just newbs (which is great).

 

[NorCalBusa]

As long as the CCW carrier isn't relying on the advice of anonymous people in a forum as to what is legal and what isn't. The CA firearms laws are a bit of a maze and it is difficult to identify the people who have the technical and legal expertise to offer reliable advice. Then there is the matter of accidental shootings that occur as a result of modifying a weapon. From what I can tell, CCW coverage doesn't indemnify a person against accidental shootings or accidental shootings when a weapon has been modified by the user. I could be wrong.

And that maze is alive and reconfiguring itself constantly.

 

[GoldensRule]

Yeah I don't think anyone will cover you for just shooting someone on accident and that's not exactly easy to do. If that happens just turn the gun on yourself because you're a dumbass and you aren't fit to be in this world. Aside from that it's absolutely not hard to define a legal firearm.

I think the question of accidental shootings is a good one to explore with an insurer. Let's say you have your "trusty" P320 in a shoulder holster and all of a sudden there is an un-commanded discharge that injures someone standing behind you on line at Vons. Are you covered? Let's say you have modified the weapon in such a way that could have resulted in the discharge, are you covered for that? Lot's of questions.

 

[GoldensRule]

And that maze is alive and reconfiguring itself constantly.

That reminds me of a terrible movie, I think it was Alien vs. Predator where the walls of an underground pyramid kept reconfiguring themselves, sounds about right.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I think the question of accidental shootings is a good one to explore with an insurer. Let's say you have your "trusty" P320 in a shoulder holster and all of a sudden there is an un-commanded discharge that injures someone standing behind you on line at Vons. Are you covered? Let's say you have modified the weapon in such a way that could have resulted in the discharge, are you covered for that? Lot's of questions.

The main companies cover legal representation in "legal self defense scenarios" so I would definitely not expect them to cover an ND. But I'm sure you can join a class action against Sig because at this point that's a sure thing. You would have to be pretty dumb to carry a p320 at this point.

 

[GoldensRule]

The main companies cover legal representation in "legal self defense scenarios" so I would definitely not expect them to cover an ND. But I'm sure you can join a class action against Sig because at this point that's a sure thing. You would have to be pretty dumb to carry a p320 at this point.

The P320 was just an example and there are still a lot of people, police, military etc. who carry the P320 or it's variants every day. My point was, accidents happen, are you covered? It's a remote possibility your homeowner's insurance might cover you for such accidents, I simply don't know. I would think that statistically, accidental shootings are more likely to occur than self defense shootings but again, I don't know the stats.

 

[Dvrjon]

Personally, I would go out of my way to ensure that my CCW weapon is 100% compliant with all laws, just in case.

No one has ever suggested that one carry an illegally configured weapon. The CCWSafe response, while helpful, clearly doesn't understand that the "safety features" are only applicable to the sale of "Not Unsafe" firearms through a dealer. Other firearms which are not on the "Not Unsafe" roster can be sold, possessed and used throughout the state with no illegality arising.

 

[Dvrjon]

I think the question of accidental shootings is a good one to explore with an insurer. Let's say you have your "trusty" P320 in a shoulder holster and all of a sudden there is an un-commanded discharge that injures someone standing behind you on line at Vons. Are you covered? Let's say you have modified the weapon in such a way that could have resulted in the discharge, are you covered for that? Lot's of questions.

Don't wear a shoulder holster that points the gun at people behind you. If you screw up on the draw or reholstering you can kill someone or blow your arm pit out.

 

[GoldensRule]

Don't wear a shoulder holster that points the gun at people behind you. If you screw up on the draw or reholstering you can kill someone or blow your arm pit out.

I think you might be sighting in on a generic example and bypassing the point and question the example is illustrating which is; are there any insurance policies which indemnify CCW holders against accidental discharges of any kind by any weapons in any situations?

 

[NorCalBusa]

Again- it is NOT insurance. Get a copy of the "agreement" (not a "policy) and go sit with your homeowner insurance broker for a review of it. See what they say, then sign the umbrella your homeowner broker insurance tells you too.

 

[GoldensRule]

Again- it is NOT insurance. Get a copy of the "agreement" (not a "policy) and go sit with your homeowner insurance broker for a review of it. See what they say, then sign the umbrella your homeowner broker insurance tells you too.

I agree with your statement that CCW "insurance" isn't. Homeowner's umbrella policies have their limitations and I am curious if anyone has been able to secure any kind of insurance that will indemnify someone for an accidental discharge of a gun they are carrying on their person while not on their own property?

 

[ef9boy88]

There have been a couple of cases where modifications have been used to attempt at forming intent.
AI overview of one of them:
The "You're F-ed" AR dust cover case refers to the
shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police Officer Philip Brailsford in 2016.

Here's a breakdown of the relevant details:

• The Incident: Daniel Shaver was shot and killed by Officer Brailsford after police responded to a call about a man pointing a rifle out of a hotel window. Shaver was reportedly showing an air rifle to others in his room.
• The Dust Cover: During the investigation, it was discovered that Officer Brailsford's AR-15 rifle had the words "'You're F-ed'" engraved on the inside of its dust cover.
• Legal Proceedings: Brailsford was charged with second-degree murder, according to Courthouse News Service. However, the judge in the case ruled the dust cover inscription inadmissible as evidence during the trial.
• Verdict and Aftermath: Brailsford was acquitted of murder. He was subsequently fired from the Mesa Police Department for "performance issues," which included having the phrase engraved on his rifle's dust cover.

In essence, while the dust cover with the inscription became a focal point for some in the public discussion surrounding the shooting, the inscription itself was not a factor in the legal outcome of the criminal trial against Officer Brailsford.

 

[Dvrjon]

I think you might be sighting in on a generic example and bypassing the point and question the example is illustrating which is; are there any insurance policies which indemnify CCW holders against accidental discharges of any kind by any weapons in any situations?

They are out there......

Consumer Coverage.com

Some incidents involving firearms are covered under your standard homeowners liability insurance. Accidental shootings that either harm another person or another person’s property that may or may not occur on your home’s property will be covered.

Insurance Information Institute

Personal insurance: Insurers rarely offer any separate gun liability insurance policy. Most individuals have some property and liability coverage for firearms in their standard homeowners’ policy. Additional liability coverage is available through a personal umbrella policy. A few policies cover losses from accidental shootings in excess of the homeowners’ coverage.

When there is liability insurance, it only covers accidental shootings and in some cases, acts of self-defense. There is no coverage for criminal or other intentional shootings.

Although every insurance company adopts its own policy, many companies use standard homeowners and personal umbrella policies written by Insurance Services Office (ISO). The standard homeowners policy is known as an HO-3. That policy specifically mentions firearms once, as property that is covered if stolen. Firearms are not mentioned in the liability section of the policy, implying that firearm liability would be covered. A homeowners’ policy covers all liabilities that are not specifically excluded.

Lockton

With Lockton Affinity Outdoor’s Personal Firearm Liability Insurance, you receive coverage to help protect against the costs associated with hunting and shooting accidents, accidental discharge, legal liability for lost or stolen firearms and lawful personal defense.

Accidental discharge coverage

Accidental discharge can occur when the firearm suffers from mechanical malfunction, when the firearm is dropped, when the firearm is cleaned and more. With Personal Firearm Liability Insurance, lawful gun owners are protected against the costs associated with an accidental discharge claim.

 

[GoldensRule]

They are out there......

Consumer Coverage.com

Insurance Information Institute

Lockton

Thanks for that information, seems like something every person who uses their CCW should be looking into, even non CCW gun enthusiasts would be wise to look into it as well.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

The P320 was just an example and there are still a lot of people, police, military etc. who carry the P320 or it's variants every day. My point was, accidents happen, are you covered? It's a remote possibility your homeowner's insurance might cover you for such accidents, I simply don't know. I would think that statistically, accidental shootings are more likely to occur than self defense shootings but again, I don't know the stats.

I mean what exactly are you looking for them to cover? Self defense coverage is for self defense. Accidentally shooting someone isn't that, you can probably get some other kind of prepaid criminal legal thing but I gotta be honest I'm just not that worried about accidentally shooting someone. Guns really aren't an "accidents happen" kind of thing because if it happens you are absolutely F-ed.

 

[psun786]

If the shooting is justified (Immediacy of threat, Reasonableness of fear, Proportionality of force), as the OP stated, it doesn’t matter whether the firearm has an aftermarket trigger or a removed magazine disconnect. For example, if someone breaks into your home and presents an immediate deadly threat, and you act in self-defense, the tool you use doesn’t change whether the force was justified. Even if you used a kilo bar of 99% pure cocaine, the legality of the self-defense claim depends on whether the threat justified deadly force — not the specific item used. That said, you are likely face possession with intent to sell unrelated to self-defense.

 

[weaverftw]

I agree with your statement that CCW "insurance" isn't. Homeowner's umbrella policies have their limitations and I am curious if anyone has been able to secure any kind of insurance that will indemnify someone for an accidental discharge of a gun they are carrying on their person while not on their own property?

Generally your HO liability coverage is not limited to occurrences that happen on your property, but rather also cover you (and residents relatives/household members) for acts for which you’re legally liable that occur off premises, unless specifically excluded.

Accidental discharges pretty clearly fall into that category as long as your policy doesn’t have an exclusion specific to firearms. However, self defense is different and more of a grey area, because there usually are exclusions for “intentional acts” (insurance is generally for accidents/negligence - eg if you purposefully run someone over with your car, your auto insurance would deny coverage even though you’re responsible). Whether self defense is covered would depend on the policy language and the position taken by the insurer, but in most instances it’s probably a no.

This is not legal advice, I’m not an attorney, etc - but I was a claims adjuster and had to make coverage decisions based on policy language and general counsel input in complex cases. There’s also the question of whether the insurer would cover it via a claim or if they would deny coverage and force a lawsuit to be filed (it may then be determined it is covered based on the facts presented). There is also usually a broader duty to defend than to indemnify, so they might foot the defense under a reservation of rights (ie not promising they are airing coverage and reserving the right to deny it based on the facts and policy provisions) to cover themselves and prevent a bad faith suit.

Side note that umbrella policies do not provide coverage on their own - they only kick in to provide MORE coverage for occurrences that are ALREADY covered by your HO or Auto policy (or GL etc).

I would NOT rely on an insurance salesman/broker to get answers to this. If you want to know more about what would be covered in your situation (or hypothetical) under YOUR policy, get copies of the entire policies in question and hire a lawyer to review them and opine on the scenario. Even then, the counsel at the insurer might disagree and it could all end up with a huge headache with a coverage denial anyways. But this is likely the best option to get an idea and would cost a couple hundred bucks for a consultation.

Again, I’m not an attorney and generally don’t know wtf I’m talking about so take the above with a grain of salt (as you should with anything anyone says on the Internet or otherwise).