Oklahoma principal stops school shooter. Should trained teachers be allowed to carry?

[psun786]

I think you’re shifting the comparison a bit.

I’m not arguing that an avg teacher w minimal training is equivalent to a combat veteran. That is obviously not the case.

The question is whether properly vetted and trained staff provide a meaningful response capability in situations where seconds matter and law enforcement is minutes away.

RN in places w/out hardened entry the reality is that there is often no immediate response at all. So the comparison is not really teacher versus Delta Force. It is trained staff on site versus waiting for external response. Hope you can see that.

If your position is that only highly experienced professionals should be armed in schools, that is a fair argument but it raises practical questions about whether every school can realistically have that level of staffing at all times and if not what fills the gap in the first few minutes.

I am more interested in whether there is a viable middle ground here, rather than treating it as an all or nothing choice.

Properly vetted and trained staff should be more than capable of carrying firearms in schools. Their primary role is to teach, not to engage threat. Just as people don’t need to be as skilled as Michael Schumacher to drive on the road

 

[ZeroFoxGiven]

Isnt everyone from there required to join the military or have military training i thought I read that somewhere

Yes, they have to serve a mandatory enlistment, I believe two years. Their mindset is different there because they are surrounded by their enemies who desire nothing more than their complete destruction as a people and religion; I cannot state it enough that their enemies seek their eradication, not subjugation.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

View attachment 179970

Israel has much stricter gun control than we do you have to be like 27 and apply for a license, and it's "may issue" not "shall issue". California is like Texas compared to Israel. Look at that rifle, that thing was made before Israel even existed. Israel doesn't arm it's teachers.

 

[nakatomi]

@KingRansom @ZeroFoxGiven

I think both of your points are missing the same core issue.

The discussion keeps shifting to whether teachers are as capable as combat vet or law enforcement, but that is not the actual decision point. The real problem is what happens in the first few minutes before anyone else arrives.

RN in many schools there is no immediate response at all.

So the comparison is not:
teacher vs tier 1 operator

It is:
trained staff on site vs no one on site

There is also a separate issue in the reasoning here: the standard being applied is essentially that someone has to perform perfectly under stress or they should not be in that role at all! By that logic no one qualifies incl LEO and veterans because no one performs perfectly in chaotic situations.

If the concern is capability the solution is screening + training. If the concern is coverage most schools do not have immediate armed response. Ignoring both leads back to the same outcome which is waiting minutes in a situation that unfolds in seconds.

 

[NorCalBusa]

I don't care if they are trained or not- its showtime so let 'em blast.

 

[nakatomi]

On the Israel point I think context matters a lot.

Their security posture and mindset are shaped by a constant real threat environment that most people here in the US have never experienced. The closest comparison for Americans is something like 9/11 and even that was a single event rather than an ongoing condition.

When you live with that kind of persistent risk you tend to prioritize deterrence and rapid response very differently. That is where a lot of their policies and cultural attitudes come from.

The US is a much lower threat environment overall so people here naturally evaluate these tradeoffs differently. Ignoring that difference leads to a lot of talking past each other in these discussions.

 

[KingRansom]

@KingRansom @ZeroFoxGiven

I think both of your points are missing the same core issue.

The discussion keeps shifting to whether teachers are as capable as combat vet or law enforcement, but that is not the actual decision point. The real problem is what happens in the first few minutes before anyone else arrives.

RN in many schools there is no immediate response at all.

So the comparison is not:
teacher vs tier 1 operator

It is:
trained staff on site vs no one on site

There is also a separate issue in the reasoning here: the standard being applied is essentially that someone has to perform perfectly under stress or they should not be in that role at all! By that logic no one qualifies incl LEO and veterans because no one performs perfectly in chaotic situations.

If the concern is capability the solution is screening + training. If the concern is coverage most schools do not have immediate armed response. Ignoring both leads back to the same outcome which is waiting minutes in a situation that unfolds in seconds.

When I was making my point about trained ex-military with combat experience, I wasn't talking about them being off site versus a teacher on site. I believe there should be multiple trained and armed ex-military protecting the kids in that school so that when something happens you have somebody that's already on the campus that has previously engaged in a situation like this prior, probably many multiple times. Like I said before, you learn through repetition. Taking some training courses while an excellent idea, does not prepare you for a live fire situation. Adrenaline dumps and everything you know goes out the window. There are very few people who can reel it back in, breathe calmly, and think coherently back to what their training was. Ex-combat veterans don't need to think back about what they learned from an instructor, they act upon their real life experiences.

 

[DecaMav]

Not really. It’s just a matter of genuinely valuing the lives of our children. Currently, over 30 states in the U.S. allow teachers or staff to carry guns on school grounds, and 15 states now have explicit laws allowing teachers to carry concealed in the classroom. Israel just understands the deterrent effect of open carry. For now, at least, we’ll just have to hope that predators actually believe the signs posted by schools in states that allow teachers to carry concealed.

View attachment 179973

California provides armed protection for politicians at taxpayer expense. I just California politicians valued the safety of average citizens — especially our children — at least as much as they value their own safety.

The reason why people carry firearms in Israel is because of terrorists. That’s literally why.

 

[Jimi Jah]

It won't work here in California. Too many AWFUL (affluent, white, female, unhinged liberals) women to get unhinged. They would sue to get that stopped quickly.

"Guns threaten my child" stuff.

 

[magoshands]

People aren't rational....
Especially when it comes to their loved ones.
School resource officers should be posted at schools. Provided they're willing to do their jobs. As for teachers my suggestion is leave it open to volunteers willing to spend the time training and subsidize that. Similar to the federal FFDO program for airline pilots.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I've made this argument many times. With a school shooter, reaction time is paramount. I think there should be a volunteer group of well-trained individuals who can respond in a school shooter situation, with guns secured but easily accessible.

There could possibly be hazard pay too, or at least compensation for undergoing training. I see no downsides. The school can vet as much as they need to, including psychological testing.

When seconds matter, police are just minutes away.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I guess just arm the students

 

[tango87]

No, we should abolish the CIA and FBI (and yes the ATF). This wasn’t a problem before those two agencies got out hand.

Abolish the CIA and FBI ? Do you even know how many divisions there are in the FBI ? Do you even know what the CIA does ? They have a special division too, like if a Delta Force member is killed every things stops until the group and their blood line is eliminated for killing an Operator. 10-4 on the ATF but that wouldn’t help anyone in California because your state government just makes up laws. California and New York are basically tied for citizens leaving those states.

 

[Jon F]

In CA, on duty peace officers can carry on campus. My idea would be to have one or two staff members per site become one through the sheriff’s department and be assigned as a hybrid teacher/SRO who trains regularly with the city’s active shooter response teams.

 

[PlinkyDinky]

I've made this argument many times. With a school shooter, reaction time is paramount. I think there should be a volunteer group of well-trained individuals who can respond in a school shooter situation, with guns secured but easily accessible.

I live very close to my kids's school, and have thought about this, too.