PDP Opinion

[RustVendor]

Yeah except your 2011 will jam if you don't lube it lol, meanwhile the PDP you can go to war with

Why would you go to war with a match gun? That's not what these guns are. but you are gonna make me say it: TWO WORLD WARS!!!!!

 

[Gawernator]

Why would you go to war with a match gun? That's not what these guns are. but you are gonna make me say it: TWO WORLD WARS!!!!!

Well you’re gonna get killed by a drone anyways might as well have a cool pistol before you die

 

[cali_jazz]

my opinion as an unexperienced owner is obviously very important. In all seriousness the steel frame being 2k outside of CA meaning i've seen them sold here for well over 3k, it's a hard sell. Ive seen a few competitive shooters have issues with the extractors on the steel frames, apparently they are different than the polymers. Take that for what you will. In that over 2k price range and likely over 3k price range there's a lot better options. The kimbers are about to hit the roster, there is also the RCD Kore you can buy from Kovert via SSE, you can also get a prodigy for around 2k PPT. I see shadow 2s on here for ~2200 and that would also be better and cheaper. Even just an SP01 would be at least as good and significantly cheaper. All of those would be similar or significantly less and have similar or higher performance. The SF would make sense at around 1200 dollars max, supposedly we are getting the SF M&P at some point which will be around the 1200 price.

As someone who actually owns a PDP Steel Frame, I think you're mixing two different questions: whether it's worth the CA off-roster premium and whether it's actually a good gun.

I can completely understand saying it's a hard sell at $3K+. There are a LOT of excellent guns competing for your money at that price, and a Shadow 2 in particular is an obvious comparison.

But saying an SP-01 is "at least as good" or that the PDP SF only makes sense at $1,200 seems like a pretty big leap. They're very different guns, and price alone doesn't establish equivalent performance. The SF isn't just a polymer PDP with a heavier frame; the weight, balance and shooting characteristics are a substantial part of what you're paying for.

I'd also be interested in seeing more information on the extractor issue. A few competition shooters having extractor failures—especially on potentially very high-round-count guns—isn't enough by itself to establish that the SF has an extractor problem.

So I'd separate "I wouldn't pay the California premium for one" from "the gun isn't worth more than $1,200." The first is a perfectly reasonable value judgment. I don't think the second follows from the evidence you've presented.

 

[chino1966]

Not afraid to pay for something if it's what I want - not stupid money, but a reasonable premium. I have a 2.0 Metal Competition, 211 GTO, 226 & 320 Reserve so heavy is my preference. $3K is too much, anyone asking that is looking for a sucker, or doesn't really want to sell it. At that price, I get a Kimber.

I have a VP9A1 and loaded it up with brass weight and PWI in Huntington is creating a magwell for it...still doesnt get me there, so I know the metal is going to be my preference.

but yes a 4.5 full size one. off roster/on roster even is fine.

get a brass backstrap, grip tape, lighter spring, and DPT and youre set man. Plus whatever optic you prefer. Brass backstrap distributes the weight real well so makes it a nice shooter.

not the metal one youre looking for but for sub 3k that the best youre gonna get. hate the roster but as @Gawernator said you gotta pay to play here.

 

[RustVendor]

As someone who actually owns a PDP Steel Frame, I think you're mixing two different questions: whether it's worth the CA off-roster premium and whether it's actually a good gun.

I can completely understand saying it's a hard sell at $3K+. There are a LOT of excellent guns competing for your money at that price, and a Shadow 2 in particular is an obvious comparison.

But saying an SP-01 is "at least as good" or that the PDP SF only makes sense at $1,200 seems like a pretty big leap. They're very different guns, and price alone doesn't establish equivalent performance. The SF isn't just a polymer PDP with a heavier frame; the weight, balance and shooting characteristics are a substantial part of what you're paying for.

I'd also be interested in seeing more information on the extractor issue. A few competition shooters having extractor failures—especially on potentially very high-round-count guns—isn't enough by itself to establish that the SF has an extractor problem.

So I'd separate "I wouldn't pay the California premium for one" from "the gun isn't worth more than $1,200." The first is a perfectly reasonable value judgment. I don't think the second follows from the evidence you've presented.

to be fair I said the M&P steel frame is currently selling for around 1200 and I would like to see a Walther used for like 1500 if they were on the roster and selling for 1800, so I wasn't arguing that the retail price is bad. I would have to be convinced that it's inherently better than a cajunized SP01 or a shadow 2, performance-wise its going to be personal preference at this level because they are all good. A CGW SP01 (which is a de facto shadow 1), a S2 and the SF PDP are all basically the same price, retail. But I'm not questioning the quality at all. If the 5" polymer and steel frame were available for the retail price here I would already have them


As for the extractor issue, here is a reddit thread but I saw it from Tom Castro primarily

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitionShooting/comments/1ki3pze/walther_pdp_sf_match_5_extraction_issues

 

[cali_jazz]

to be fair I said the M&P steel frame is currently selling for around 1200 and I would like to see a Walther used for like 1500 if they were on the roster and selling for 1800, so I wasn't arguing that the retail price is bad. I would have to be convinced that it's inherently better than a cajunized SP01 or a shadow 2, performance-wise its going to be personal preference at this level because they are all good. A CGW SP01 (which is a de facto shadow 1), a S2 and the SF PDP are all basically the same price, retail. But I'm not questioning the quality at all. If the 5" polymer and steel frame were available for the retail price here I would already have them


As for the extractor issue, here is a reddit thread but I saw it from Tom Castro primarily

https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitionShooting/comments/1ki3pze/walther_pdp_sf_match_5_extraction_issues

Fair enough.
It's a pretty nice gun. I have the 4.0 Inch which doesn't have the DPT trigger, but I have a new one in the box waiting for me to install it. I paid 1900 for mine which I realize was a great price only slightly over retail. Inherently better? I can't go that far. I have an SP-01 (Not CGW yet) and and S2 Orange which is other-level. I let one of the guys at the range shoot my PDP last week, he stacked 4 zeros at 7.5 yards, and was smiling ear-to-ear. He decided on the spot that's going to be his next gun!

 

[Skilly]

Fair enough.
It's a pretty nice gun. I have the 4.0 Inch which doesn't have the DPT trigger, but I have a new one in the box waiting for me to install it. I paid 1900 for mine which I realize was a great price only slightly over retail. Inherently better? I can't go that far. I have an SP-01 (Not CGW yet) and and S2 Orange which is other-level. I let one of the guys at the range shoot my PDP last week, he stacked 4 zeros at 7.5 yards, and was smiling ear-to-ear. He decided on the spot that's going to be his next gun!

I have the 5" HD Competitor which I tweaked a little with an Agency Trigger and Spring Kit and added more weight in the grip and a Tungsten Return Spring Rod. Hard to find but lucky enough to find it. All said, that ended up being in the mid $2Ks. The weight makes it a pleasure to shoot and stacking zeros is its thing. Its striker fire so the trigger will never get to that status only a 2011 can provide - nothing replaces a hammer fire.

The Echelon to me sits in the middle, even after all of the updates I did. Its good at everything but doesnt stand out. And, the 4.0C sits better with me. Given I like the M&P, and I always hear how amazing the PDP is, thats where my head was going - SF Pro or Match. Will just be another needle/haystack search thanks to CA. And if I opt for the plastic grip, I think I'm back in the same boat because I have an HK VP9A1 F, although they are SO much harder to trick out.

 

[lactoast]

Fair enough.
I paid 1900 for mine which I realize was a great price only slightly over retail.

$1900 is absolutely a fantastic price given how much it retails for, that’s pretty much BIN territory for us in this state. What a snag!

 

[Hindsight]

I have the 5" HD Competitor which I tweaked a little with an Agency Trigger and Spring Kit and added more weight in the grip and a Tungsten Return Spring Rod. Hard to find but lucky enough to find it. All said, that ended up being in the mid $2Ks. The weight makes it a pleasure to shoot and stacking zeros is its thing. Its striker fire so the trigger will never get to that status only a 2011 can provide - nothing replaces a hammer fire.

The Echelon to me sits in the middle, even after all of the updates I did. Its good at everything but doesnt stand out. And, the 4.0C sits better with me. Given I like the M&P, and I always hear how amazing the PDP is, thats where my head was going - SF Pro or Match. Will just be another needle/haystack search thanks to CA. And if I opt for the plastic grip, I think I'm back in the same boat because I have an HK VP9A1 F, although they are SO much harder to trick out.

You may feel differently once the Zermatt Waltz9 hits CA. Might be a while but it's probably going to be the new king of carry optics. Striker fired but feels very similar to an Atlas both in terms of ease of shooting and fitment/machining.

 

[lactoast]

You may feel differently once the Zermatt Waltz9 hits CA. Might be a while but it's probably going to be the new king of carry optics. Striker fired but feels very similar to an Atlas both in terms of ease of shooting and fitment/machining.

MSRP is nearly $5k for those who are curious

 

[Hindsight]

MSRP is nearly $5k for those who are curious

yup, it'll be cost prohibitive for some for sure. I was very impressed with it the few times I've handled one in classes and can't wait to scoop one up here if they can get it going via SSE. Given it's competing with 2011s performance wise it's about correctly priced and decently lower than something like a equivalent Atlas or Dark Forge. With how many cajunized CZ Shadow 2s you see I don't think it'd be much of a stretch for CO guys to spring for it either, but we'll see.

 

[RustVendor]

You may feel differently once the Zermatt Waltz9 hits CA. Might be a while but it's probably going to be the new king of carry optics. Striker fired but feels very similar to an Atlas both in terms of ease of shooting and fitment/machining.

never seen so much hype for a gun that hasn't been released. It does seem like it has all the elements but if anything just highlights how poorly Carry Optics is defined as a division.

 

[Hindsight]

never seen so much hype for a gun that hasn't been released. It does seem like it has all the elements but if anything just highlights how poorly Carry Optics is defined as a division.

I think this one at least has an absolute metric ton of test fire, T&E input from high level/high volume shooter, gets run hard in classes and is from a company taking the right approach to its release. Joel was complaining about how he lives close to Dave and they'll frequently have to take a few Waltz9s out to the range and do burn downs for thousands of rounds that day and TRY to actively see how/where they fail, pouring water over them after thousands of rounds to cool them down and see if they'll crack or jam, iterating on tolerances to increase reliability or maintenance intervals, etc. Some of those suckers have well north of 100k rounds on them in less than a year.

Plus, it's an open source design so could absolutely trickle down in later years to other manufacturers to make better/higher performance striker fired designs and models.

 

[Skilly]

yup, it'll be cost prohibitive for some for sure. I was very impressed with it the few times I've handled one in classes and can't wait to scoop one up here if they can get it going via SSE. Given it's competing with 2011s performance wise it's about correctly priced and decently lower than something like a equivalent Atlas or Dark Forge. With how many cajunized CZ Shadow 2s you see I don't think it'd be much of a stretch for CO guys to spring for it either, but we'll see.

Im good. It's that price point that I start to question why...its probably the reason I don't have a Staccato in my collection.

I've had an XC side by side at the range with my GTO and it was easily comparable across performance but the XC is double the price. As price walks into that $5K range, to me, it's like wine to the common man - after a hitting $30 bottles only an expert can tell if the extra money is worth it (and even that is subjective).

I love shooting and I am picky with how the gun feels and operates, but I'm not competing. Im just building out a collection of cool stuff (to me).

 

[Hindsight]

Im good. It's that price point that I start to question why...its probably the reason I don't have a Staccato in my collection.

I've had an XC side by side at the range with my GTO and it was easily comparable across performance but the XC is double the price. As price walks into that $5K range, to me, it's like wine to the common man - after a hitting $30 bottles only an expert can tell if the extra money is worth it (and even that is subjective).

I love shooting and I am picky with how the gun feels and operates, but I'm not competing. Im just building out a collection of cool stuff (to me).

No need to justify your personal choices. You're the only one who has the final say on that and whether it's worth it to you. The GTO is great and decently heavier versus what is a pretty old design at this point with the XC. I wouldn't be surprised if it won out to a lot of people. Especially if it's just static range shooting and not feeling the difference in how they transition between multiple targets and swinging around the extra weight or balance of the gun feels.

No wrong answers here.

 

[RustVendor]

oh im not questioning that they are good, they just don't exist yet. They are still prototypes. Zermatt makes great bolt actions, I have one. I'm just saying we have to keep in perspective that the guns that they are shooting are not coming off of their production line because it doesn't exist. It is very interesting, I'm curious how much it actually differs from a sight block 2011 with the same characteristics in practice. LIke the "Humble Marksman" review he shoots one next to a HD P4.5 and they essentially recoil identically even though the P4.5 is significantly lighter. I'm not sure how I feel about the trigger mechanism because it's a sealed box that isn't user serviceable. Presumably they will sell modules to change characteristics. I'm glad that someone finally made a striker fired gun that equals the hammer fired performance though, just to show you can because people think that there is something inherent in the fact that one is a hammer that makes it good, but they're all doing a similar thing even without a "hammer", all the good ones like the PDP or M&P have a sear that rotates to release the firing pin. But finally something comes along to prove what I have been saying for a long time, that CO and LO aren't different divisions and CO needs a weight limit to be restricted to actual carry guns.

They will have to have 500 guns sold to the public before they can be legal for carry optics, very curious how many they are planning to release when they finally do come out.

I think this one at least has an absolute metric ton of test fire, T&E input from high level/high volume shooter, gets run hard in classes and is from a company taking the right approach to its release. Joel was complaining about how he lives close to Dave and they'll frequently have to take a few Waltz9s out to the range and do burn downs for thousands of rounds that day and TRY to actively see how/where they fail, pouring water over them after thousands of rounds to cool them down and see if they'll crack or jam, iterating on tolerances to increase reliability or maintenance intervals, etc. Some of those suckers have well north of 100k rounds on them in less than a year.

Plus, it's an open source design so could absolutely trickle down in later years to other manufacturers to make better/higher performance striker fired designs and models.

 

[Skilly]

oh im not questioning that they are good, they just don't exist yet. They are still prototypes. Zermatt makes great bolt actions, I have one. I'm just saying we have to keep in perspective that the guns that they are shooting are not coming off of their production line because it doesn't exist. It is very interesting, I'm curious how much it actually differs from a sight block 2011 with the same characteristics in practice. LIke the "Humble Marksman" review he shoots one next to a HD P4.5 and they essentially recoil identically even though the P4.5 is significantly lighter. I'm not sure how I feel about the trigger mechanism because it's a sealed box that isn't user serviceable. Presumably they will sell modules to change characteristics. I'm glad that someone finally made a striker fired gun that equals the hammer fired performance though, just to show you can because people think that there is something inherent in the fact that one is a hammer that makes it good, but they're all doing a similar thing even without a "hammer", all the good ones like the PDP or M&P have a sear that rotates to release the firing pin. But finally something comes along to prove what I have been saying for a long time, that CO and LO aren't different divisions and CO needs a weight limit to be restricted to actual carry guns.

They will have to have 500 guns sold to the public before they can be legal for carry optics, very curious how many they are planning to release when they finally do come out.

Any chance we can get back on the PDP topic?

 

[RustVendor]

Any chance we can get back on the PDP topic?

no, sorry

 

[chino1966]

You may feel differently once the Zermatt Waltz9 hits CA. Might be a while but it's probably going to be the new king of carry optics. Striker fired but feels very similar to an Atlas both in terms of ease of shooting and fitment/machining.

Asked the ZA guys about the Waltz9 coming to CA and they said there's not any plans in the works of it coming to CA. But one can hope and my wallet got a spot ready for one.

best bet is to buy it from cop who has no idea what a waltz 9 is but wants to get a free vacation

 

[Hindsight]

Asked the ZA guys about the Waltz9 coming to CA and they said there's not any plans in the works of it coming to CA. But one can hope and my wallet got a spot ready for one.

best bet is to buy it from cop who has no idea what a waltz 9 is but wants to get a free vacation

Interesting, when was this? Last I asked they said it wouldn’t be in the first batch, but they were in talks with various FFLs to see how to get it in our hands eventually. Things like SSE. Talked with some FFLs that had started those conversations as well.