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Privacy, surveilance and economics in this age of AI

Are you of the mindset that there's nothing to see here?
Not at all. I'm worried about Flock having access to all this data. I'm worried that employees inside Flock can abuse it. That Flock's customers (for example police agencies) haven't learned yet how to prevent abuse. I'm wondering whether a large aggregation of free and public data rises to the level where accessing it constitutes a "search" in the sense of the 4th amendment.

A lot of this can be solved by learning the ropes. For example, if you work in the big computer and software companies of Silicon Valley, in particular the ones that deal with PII and medical HIPAA data, or with any government-restricted data (export controlled, ITAR, classified), the first thing that happens is that you go to a training class, and get given a big policy document about "do and don't". For example, the average Microsoft/Apple/Google/Facebook/IBM/Northrop/... employee knows exactly that individual customers (Bob User) is NOT identifiable to them, and that Bob's identity has been carefully transcoded into a 128-bit opaque ID. They might be able to see that user ID 0x1234ABCD stored a file that's 987,654 bytes long yesterday at 11am, but they are not allowed to dermine what Bob's ID is, nor can they find out who 0x1234ABCD is. If they try to use the user-to-ID database, and audit record is created, and 5 minutes later their phone rings: Why did you look up who Bob User is? They also can not read the file mentioned, because it is encrypted with Bob's private key. If they look at the database with the encryption keys, the phone will ring again. Similarly with medical data: It is anonymized during processing and storage by using opaque IDs, and by splitting the data. I've seen corporate security (we used to call them "red shirts", but their shirts are not actually red, too Star Trek) walk up to an engineers desk and tell them "please follow us to the conference room NOW, someone from audit has some questions they'd like to ask". In the case I know, the engineer came back half hour later, visibly angry, and complaining that the idiots from audit don't understand anything and wasted his time once again.

There are people who have permission to do just about anything to data in such corporations. They have background checks done on them, just like the military and the intelligence agencies do. Often, these potentially sensitive operations require two people in the room, and can only be done in special conference rooms with frosted glass windows, using special network outlets and wired connection. We used to call those "panic rooms". Example: "We just got a subpoena, and need to look up all pictures Bob User received from underage girls in the last 24 hours, and make a list of the user ID's of those girls, and then tie it back to the cell phone location of the girls". And yes, working in big computer companies, you know people who've had to look at some VERY disgusting pictures, and after coming out of the panic room they go do see some counseling to talk about what happened, and take the rest of the day off.

And occasionally you do hear stories where people were fired, walked out of the building, and referred to law enforcement, because they broke the rules and did things like spy on their ex-partners. That tends to be rare, and I've never seen it happen to anyone I know, nor to my (extended) department.

So in my opinion, I would trust the big established companies to handle this kind of ultra-sensitive data, and mostly be responsible about (with rare lapses). The question is: Do companies like Flock have that culture? Do they know how to write policy manuals, train employees, check that the policies are being followed, and have alarm mechanisms? Or are they "fake it till you make it" and "move fast and break things" startups, with a culture of "I don't care, I'm only here until the IPO"? I don't know.

And that's just Flock ... where the company itself holds the data (all the license plate / face / body reading), and the data is its most important asset.

Palantir is yet a different case. Palantir is not so much a data company, more a software and services company. They sell software and services to government agencies, but they don't usually have copies of the data. Palantir doesn't so much know that YOU SPECIFICALLY drove your beige Camry to the gun store yesterday; they sell the program to the ATF and CA-DoJ that links Flock data with DROS/NICS data, and the program runs on some government agencies computer (or in a Palatir data center under the control of government people). Palantir is less in the business of doing evil things themselves, and more in the business of enabling other to do evil things (and I think the company and its top executes are inherently evil).

Another thing which makes it complicated: Often, large government organizations outsource their data processing completely to contractors. For example, all of the civilian weather-related data processing in the US is outsourced to an unnamed vendor (you'd recognize the company name), and the CTO of the National Weather Service has both a government badge and a company badge. Some of the NWS's data centers are in vendor buildings, with every single staff member being vendor employees. Another example: I know that Northrop used to run one of the big data centers for a secretive organization in Colorado, loosely associated with the Space force; a friend of mine quit his job at my company to go work for them. But: Those employees have nothing to do with their vendor. It's not like other Northrop employees have access to all the pictures or signals taken by these space force satellites; it's just that the staffers (sys admins, now known as SREs) in the Colorado building happen to get their paychecks from Northrop. Again, I trust companies such as Lockheed, Raytheon or Northrop to know how to build firewalls between systems and around people. They've been doing that for many decades, and they have only made very few messes in the process.

Look at it this way: There is something you should worry about just as much, which is nukes. Those are built and managed by ... private companies. Du Pont used to run Savannah River; Pantex (which assembles the warheads) first operated by Procter and Gamble (yes, the soap company!) and now by Fluor, and so on. They have had a few scandals (Chinese spies at Los Alamos, fatal explosions at Pantex, tanks full of unknown radioactive gunk at Hanford), but for the most part, they're run well. And have neither exploded nor given ALL their secrets to the competition.

But now the worrisome thing is that the industry is moving rapidly, and new players are coming in. For example "AI data centers in space to process satellite intelligence on the fly". Or Flock as a terrestrial example. If that's done by a startup that's only been in business for 3 months, and is funded by a half-crazy person who has good connections somewhere in Washington and on Sand Hill road, can you trust them? If you can't trust them, why are you hiring then? Do we need tighter controls on them?

And the same argument goes for the police and intelligence agencies themselves. It used to be that a police detective needed to spend hours or days to find out where a car with a certain license plate had gone. Nobody in that job had the time to go spy on their ex-partner. And if they tried, the desk sergeant would notice, and drag them in front of IA. Today, it takes 30 seconds on the Flock website. Suddenly 100 crooked cops have been caught spying on their exes. That should not come as a surprise. The failure here is that the lieutenants at these agencies should have written policy manuals, put procedures in place, and run audits and checked logs. But the lieutenants are either stupid, or overworked, or naive. I think the last two are more likely explanations.
 
Also: I would love to invite @RickD427 to give his opinion.

In particular into how easy or difficult it is to get warrants. I've always heard that in a criminal investigation with some halfway decent leads / suspicion, getting a warrant is trivial, and they just don't get rejected if the requesting department dots the T and crosses the I. It just takes quite a bit of work. In the same vein, I happen to know that getting subpoenas / writs / examination orders for debt collection is also trivial, but very tedious and slow, which is why good law firms charge tens of thousands for debt collection.

By demanding that everything need a warrant to access, all we accomplish might be this: The state hires another thousand superior court judges (with clerks and a few staff attorneys), each of which does 20 warrant requests per day. Local PDs spend hundreds of thousands of hours shuffling paperwork around, uselessly. Occasionally making mistakes, for which they then may get crucified. Instead of justice, we might create a bureaucratic monster.
Getting a Search Warrant in a criminal case is not difficult at all. I'm a big fan of Search Warrants, not only because the Constitution favors them, but because they make the subsequent prosecution of the case a lot easier. I like to explain using a continuum. On one end are searches that solidly "good", on the other end are searches that are solidly "bad", and in the middle is a great big "gray area." If I do a search based on some exception to the warrant requirement, the burden of proof is on the prosecution to show that the search is within the "Solidly Good" part of the continuum. If the court finds my search to be bad, or in the gray area, I generally will lose the evidence recovered. OTOH, if I do the same search with a warrant, and the nice defense attorney wants to exclude the evidence, then he/she/it/other has the burden of proof to show that my search was "Solidly Bad." If the judge finds my search to be good, or in the "gray area", I get to keep my evidence. The net result is that the effort of my getting the warrant shifts the burden of proof as to the search to the defense and gives me ownership of the "Gray Area" on the continuum.

To get a warrant, you need to complete two documents: 1) The warrant, in which you have to describe the place to be searched and the things to be seized, and 2) An affidavit in support of the warrant in which you lay out the required probable cause .

The hardest part is getting in front of a judge to sign the warrant. Everywhere that I've worked, I've had really good judges. Many have offered their home phone numbers to call when a warrant is needed. They value the Fourth Amendment and want to make the process easy. They don't "Rubber Stamp", they're going to read the affidavit, and they're going to ensure that the affidavit matches what listed in the warrant. I've never personally had a warrant application refused. I do know of some deputies who had to trim back the scope of the warrant when the reviewing Judge didn't see a match between the affidavit and requested scope of search. I also know of two deputies who had their warrant application flatly refused by the judge (it was a jurisdictional issue, they were trying to search an FBI office).

I've only experienced one problem in getting a warrant, and it was when I brand new at a station, and had just returned to duty following a military recall on 9/11. I didn't have direct access to any judge, and I went through the District Attorney's Command Post to get access. The duty DDA clearly didn't want to wake up a judge and wanted the warrant to wait for the next court day.
 
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I don't know whether they are allowed to do surveillance. Investigators are.

Process servers are allowed to do "stakeout", which means they sit in front of the parties house in their car all day, and the moment the front door opens, they hand the envelope to the person. Last time I did that it was $80 an hour during normal business hours, more in the evening, and took three days (I guess the party eventually had to do a grocery run, ha ha). I've seen cases where parties know that they are being served, and do their damnedest to not get anywhere near the front door.

By the way, pro tip for other folks who want to due process service: Many parties who refused to get served by normal process servers can get tricked in two ways. First, you can actually hire the sheriff's department to perform service; they're a little more expensive than bottom-of-the-barrel serving companies (ABC Legal, icky), but often parties will open the door if there is a sheriff's car in the driveway and a deputy in uniform at the door.

Second, some process servers know good tricks. For example: Show up in a pickup truck that looks like a plumber (complete with cargo rack and pipes on top), wear dirty coveralls and a baseball cap that says "Bob's Plumbing", and carry the kind of aluminum box clipboard contractors use. Or drive a hearse and wear a black suit with a black tie. I've worked with servers who actually enjoy that part of the business, the games and dress-up.


Now take that times 24 hours (or at least 6am until midnight to get all their movement), and double or triple it for having multiple people, and we're talking good money. On the other hand, if it allows me to collect a $1M judgement, it's worth it.


Yes, but a good attorney gets something simple done in half an hour, and something complicated in two hours. Whereas the investigator may have to spend 3 x 2 x 24 hours to figure out which bank branch the party goes to.
What do you do for work
 
Can we step back for a second and think about why the founders thought it was important for the government to have a reason before seriously investigating someone?

That seems like the important part people are skipping over.

The point of the Fourth Amendment was not that police can never investigate anyone. It was that the government should not just have unlimited power to look through everyone's lives hoping to find something.

There is supposed to be some friction there.

You have a reason to suspect someone. Then you investigate them.

What we are building with things like Flock and Palantir starts to flip that around.

Collect information on everyone. Store it. Connect it all together. Then later decide who you want to investigate and pull up their history.

That seems pretty far removed from the basic idea the founders were trying to protect.

Imagine trying to follow one person around twenty four hours a day fifty years ago. You would need cops, cars, time, money, supervisors, and some actual reason to devote all those resources to that person.

You obviously could not do that to everyone.

That practical limitation was actually a pretty meaningful protection against government surveillance.

Technology removes it.

A camera seeing my car drive through an intersection is one thing.

The government being able to type my plate into a computer and see everywhere I have been for months is something completely different.

Where I go to church. Who I visit. What doctor I see. What political events I attend. Where I spend the night. Who I regularly meet.

At some point saying "well technically all of that happened in public" feels like it completely misses the larger issue.

The question is not whether a cop could have seen me at any one of those places.

The question is whether we want the government maintaining the ability to reconstruct huge portions of everyone's lives without first having any particular reason to be watching them.

I think that is where the constitutional and libertarian concern really is.

The founders built a system where government power was supposed to encounter resistance before it was turned against an individual.

We are slowly building one where the government can collect everything first and ask questions later.

Those feel like very different ideas of what freedom from government intrusion is supposed to mean.
 
The trend for the last 50 years really I'd say starting prominently with Mccarthyism and the red scare was this shift in national law enforcement to pre emptively assuming almost any american citizen had the potential of being a threat or a criminal, and this somehow being a justification as if they'd already committed some crime. That's the entire theme behind the writing in the constitution regardless of what the supreme court has persisted over the last 50 years.

The patriot act has been the most egregious infraction here, and I think we can all recognize that this is embraced by both sides of the isle, which should be an indication to you whether or not these people are actually on the side of "western values" as the CEO of Palantir and Anduril often love proudly proclaiming.
 
net net
Can we step back for a second and think about why the founders thought it was important for the government to have a reason before seriously investigating someone?

That seems like the important part people are skipping over.

The point of the Fourth Amendment was not that police can never investigate anyone. It was that the government should not just have unlimited power to look through everyone's lives hoping to find something.

There is supposed to be some friction there.

You have a reason to suspect someone. Then you investigate them.

What we are building with things like Flock and Palantir starts to flip that around.

Collect information on everyone. Store it. Connect it all together. Then later decide who you want to investigate and pull up their history.

That seems pretty far removed from the basic idea the founders were trying to protect.

Imagine trying to follow one person around twenty four hours a day fifty years ago. You would need cops, cars, time, money, supervisors, and some actual reason to devote all those resources to that person.

You obviously could not do that to everyone.

That practical limitation was actually a pretty meaningful protection against government surveillance.

Technology removes it.

A camera seeing my car drive through an intersection is one thing.

The government being able to type my plate into a computer and see everywhere I have been for months is something completely different.

Where I go to church. Who I visit. What doctor I see. What political events I attend. Where I spend the night. Who I regularly meet.

At some point saying "well technically all of that happened in public" feels like it completely misses the larger issue.

The question is not whether a cop could have seen me at any one of those places.

The question is whether we want the government maintaining the ability to reconstruct huge portions of everyone's lives without first having any particular reason to be watching them.

I think that is where the constitutional and libertarian concern really is.

The founders built a system where government power was supposed to encounter resistance before it was turned against an individual.

We are slowly building one where the government can collect everything first and ask questions later.

Those feel like very different ideas of what freedom from government intrusion is supposed to mean.

"Trust me. I work with the government and Im here to help" - doesnt exactly instill confidence.

The over reach that these cameras are empowering it is palatable, and the argument that "well if you have nothing to hide..." is a complete gaslighting statement that side steps the constitutionality of this paradigm. This whole system is designed to enable abuse of power.

"its for the great good" has NEVER been a good argument.
 
net net


"Trust me. I work with the government and Im here to help" - doesnt exactly instill confidence.

The over reach that these cameras are empowering it is palatable, and the argument that "well if you have nothing to hide..." is a complete gaslighting statement that side steps the constitutionality of this paradigm. This whole system is designed to enable abuse of power.
I've worked in the world of privacy and censorship resistance professionally, so undoubtedly I'm at the top of many lists by many governments.

I think the sentiment that consistently should ring true to EVERYONE when thinking of these problems is "Would you give this capability to the worst leader/government you can possibly imagine(worse than Hitler 🥨s even?"

If not, then we need to really start from the bias of only doing the thing if it's absolutely dire we don't.
 
net net


"Trust me. I work with the government and Im here to help" - doesnt exactly instill confidence.

The over reach that these cameras are empowering it is palatable, and the argument that "well if you have nothing to hide..." is a complete gaslighting statement that side steps the constitutionality of this paradigm. This whole system is designed to enable abuse of power.

"its for the great good" has NEVER been a good argument.
Agreed even though I can see the benefits
 
Can we step back for a second and think about why the founders thought it was important for the government to have a reason before seriously investigating someone?

That seems like the important part people are skipping over.

The point of the Fourth Amendment was not that police can never investigate anyone. It was that the government should not just have unlimited power to look through everyone's lives hoping to find something.

There is supposed to be some friction there.

You have a reason to suspect someone. Then you investigate them.

What we are building with things like Flock and Palantir starts to flip that around.

Collect information on everyone. Store it. Connect it all together. Then later decide who you want to investigate and pull up their history.

That seems pretty far removed from the basic idea the founders were trying to protect.

Imagine trying to follow one person around twenty four hours a day fifty years ago. You would need cops, cars, time, money, supervisors, and some actual reason to devote all those resources to that person.

You obviously could not do that to everyone.

That practical limitation was actually a pretty meaningful protection against government surveillance.

Technology removes it.

A camera seeing my car drive through an intersection is one thing.

The government being able to type my plate into a computer and see everywhere I have been for months is something completely different.

Where I go to church. Who I visit. What doctor I see. What political events I attend. Where I spend the night. Who I regularly meet.

At some point saying "well technically all of that happened in public" feels like it completely misses the larger issue.

The question is not whether a cop could have seen me at any one of those places.

The question is whether we want the government maintaining the ability to reconstruct huge portions of everyone's lives without first having any particular reason to be watching them.

I think that is where the constitutional and libertarian concern really is.

The founders built a system where government power was supposed to encounter resistance before it was turned against an individual.

We are slowly building one where the government can collect everything first and ask questions later.

Those feel like very different ideas of what freedom from government intrusion is supposed to mean.
Based and redpilled
 
Can we step back for a second and think about why the founders thought it was important for the government to have a reason before seriously investigating someone? ... The point of the Fourth Amendment was not that police can never investigate anyone. It was that the government should not just have unlimited power to look through everyone's lives hoping to find something.
I disagree, on two grounds, one more specific to the 4A, one more fundamental.

The specific one: I don't think the 4A means that prosecution is limited in how or what it can prosecute. I think it is more that it can't use unjustified prosecution as a form of harassment. What I mean by "unjustified" is: if the government (whether it is LE, DA or court) knows ahead of time, or should reasonably have known, that criminal investigation or prosecution will not lead to conviction, and is instead doing it for reasons such as politics, personal vendetta, controlling the narrative and such, then it must not harass the defendant by intrusive actions such as searching their property or them, or seizing their property.

Yet, the above is done somewhat regularly. At the large scale (for example the recent "reflecting pond peeling paint vandalism" case), and the small scale (complain about the sheriff's department at a council meeting, get dragged out of the room and roughed up). And it is not only done by the government in criminal cases, but also often in civil actions that are started solely as a form of harassment. Often by big entities (corporations, wealthy individuals) as a form of pressure against people who can't afford the high costs of a lawsuit.

I think one good fix for this would be a form of English rule: The losing side in a legal action (even in a criminal investigation or charge) pays the expenses and damages for the losing side. Always. And all damages, including wasted personal time, reputational damage, lost earnings, and so on. Which means that if a crooked sheriff in cahoots with a crooked DA tosses your house, takes a lot of good stuff (guns, financial records) for a few years, ruins your reputation by alleging that you are a bad person, at least they'll pay up the wazoo, and you'll be rich afterwards.

The more specific one: The BoR was written about 250 years ago, and quite a bit of it is a direct reaction to abuses committed by the British colonial power. It is often too specific, and focussed on effects instead of underlying principles. For example, the "zeroth amendment" is flat out missing: The most basic right, even more important than speech, opinion, guns, and not having soldiers quartered in one's home, is the right to life, to physical integrity, and the liberty to pursue happiness. From this viewpoint, the 4A should be rewritten as "the government shall not harass you, for example with criminal prosecution or administrative nonsense, just because they don't like you" (not a serious formulation, but you get the gist). The 2A should instead read: "you can defend yourself, even using force, if your basic rights are threatened."

There are many examples where this new "unjustified harassment" version of the 4A would get traction to prevent abuse of power, which the current 4A does not.
 
I disagree, on two grounds, one more specific to the 4A, one more fundamental.

The specific one: I don't think the 4A means that prosecution is limited in how or what it can prosecute. I think it is more that it can't use unjustified prosecution as a form of harassment. What I mean by "unjustified" is: if the government (whether it is LE, DA or court) knows ahead of time, or should reasonably have known, that criminal investigation or prosecution will not lead to conviction, and is instead doing it for reasons such as politics, personal vendetta, controlling the narrative and such, then it must not harass the defendant by intrusive actions such as searching their property or them, or seizing their property.

Yet, the above is done somewhat regularly. At the large scale (for example the recent "reflecting pond peeling paint vandalism" case), and the small scale (complain about the sheriff's department at a council meeting, get dragged out of the room and roughed up). And it is not only done by the government in criminal cases, but also often in civil actions that are started solely as a form of harassment. Often by big entities (corporations, wealthy individuals) as a form of pressure against people who can't afford the high costs of a lawsuit.

I think one good fix for this would be a form of English rule: The losing side in a legal action (even in a criminal investigation or charge) pays the expenses and damages for the losing side. Always. And all damages, including wasted personal time, reputational damage, lost earnings, and so on. Which means that if a crooked sheriff in cahoots with a crooked DA tosses your house, takes a lot of good stuff (guns, financial records) for a few years, ruins your reputation by alleging that you are a bad person, at least they'll pay up the wazoo, and you'll be rich afterwards.

The more specific one: The BoR was written about 250 years ago, and quite a bit of it is a direct reaction to abuses committed by the British colonial power. It is often too specific, and focussed on effects instead of underlying principles. For example, the "zeroth amendment" is flat out missing: The most basic right, even more important than speech, opinion, guns, and not having soldiers quartered in one's home, is the right to life, to physical integrity, and the liberty to pursue happiness. From this viewpoint, the 4A should be rewritten as "the government shall not harass you, for example with criminal prosecution or administrative nonsense, just because they don't like you" (not a serious formulation, but you get the gist). The 2A should instead read: "you can defend yourself, even using force, if your basic rights are threatened."

There are many examples where this new "unjustified harassment" version of the 4A would get traction to prevent abuse of power, which the current 4A does not.


I think you're mostly arguing against a different thing than I am.

The Fourth Amendment isn't really saying "don't investigate or prosecute someone unless you think you'll get a conviction."

It's saying there are limits on how the government can search people and their property, and it specifically puts probable cause into the warrant process.

Whether the prosecution eventually wins or loses isn't really the point.

I completely agree that government harassment, retaliatory prosecution, abuse of process, civil lawsuits designed to bankrupt people, etc. are serious problems. But I don't think redefining the Fourth Amendment as "the government shouldn't harass you" helps here. If anything it throws away a much more concrete protection.

The simpler take:

Why should the government have the ability to build a detailed searchable record of millions of innocent people's movements before any suspicion exists?

Imagine there is zero corruption involved.

No crooked sheriffs dept, no political retaliation, no malicious prosecutors or anything like that.

Just ordinary neighborhood police officers using Flock.

They have no reason to suspect me of anything today, but the system is still recording where my car goes. Six months from now I become interesting to them and they can potentially search backward through information that was collected when there was no investigation and no suspicion whatsoever.

That is the part I'm challenging the justification for.

Historically, if the government wanted to know everywhere I went for six months, it had to make a decision to actually surveil me. That required people, money, time and some reason for doing it.

You couldn't practically surveil everybody just in case they became interesting later.

Now you can.

So I think the important question is whether "a police officer could legally see your car on a public road" necessarily means "the government should be able to automatically record everyone's movements, aggregate them, retain them and make everyone's past searchable."

Those seem like very different amounts of government power to me.

And the English rule idea doesn't really resolve that question. Compensating someone after the government abuses its power is useful, but I'd rather have structural limits that make the abuse harder in the first place.

That's basically what I'm getting at. The issue isn't just punishing bad actors after they misuse surveillance.

It's deciding how much surveillance power we want the government to possess in the first place.
 
Just a short reply to a small part of your message:

The Fourth Amendment isn't really saying "don't investigate or prosecute someone unless you think you'll get a conviction."
No. What it is saying: don't search or seize, unless you have a good enough reason that a conviction seems plausible or probably. That is for example enshrined in the reasons for getting a warrant.

Historically, if the government wanted to know everywhere I went for six months, it had to make a decision to actually surveil me. That required people, money, time and some reason for doing it.

Here's an example to maybe change your mind: Adam gets murdered. Shot from the other side of the street, through the kitchen window, by a 9mm round. The police sort of suspect that Bob did it, but they don't have solid evidence, and in particular they don't have a motive. Adam, Bob and Bob's wife Eve used to be best friends. So they go back to their Flock cameras, and find: (a) Starting about 6 months ago, Eve was going to Adam's place on her lunch break from work regularly, coming out an hour later looking flushed with her clothes in disarray. (b) 5 months ago Bob left home in his car in the evening, looking very angry, and slept in the parking lot of a state park for two nights. (c) Since then, Bob and Eve have not been seen driving together. And Adam has not been to BBQ at Bob's and Eve's house, which he used to go to nearly every weekend. (d) Starting 4 months ago, Bob, who had long been a gun owner, started regularly going to an informal range on BLM land after work, and practicing shooting at 25 yards.

All this information comes from Flock cameras (and similar things), which recognized their license plate numbers, and Bob's face at the range. I think there's enough here to some probably cause warrants, and with some more information or a confession also a conviction. Suddenly Flock cameras are a valuable investigative tool to get a murder conviction. And in this particular case, I'm sure the PD investigators would be able to get a warrant to review the Flock footage, see RickD427's post from above.

And the English rule idea doesn't really resolve that question. Compensating someone after the government abuses its power is useful, but I'd rather have structural limits that make the abuse harder in the first place.
No, but it's a starting point. And it is easily automated, since money can be reasonable well measured. And it might be the step that starts a culture change: Yes, government is actually responsible for its screwups, and can be held responsible in a court of law, as a matter of course, not as the rare exception (which in some police departments has sadly become the rule rather than the exception, for example San Jose PD is famous for having to spend a ton of money because some of its officers seem to be out of control, hinting at a systemic training and hiring problem).

Those seem like very different amounts of government power to me.
The place where I'm very different from most people here on the forum: I'm actually in favor or MORE government, but if AND ONLY IF the government uses its power for good. So for example, CARB is right out, that organization needs to be eat least heavily shrunk and have its wings clipped.
 
Just a short reply to a small part of your message:


No. What it is saying: don't search or seize, unless you have a good enough reason that a conviction seems plausible or probably. That is for example enshrined in the reasons for getting a warrant.



Here's an example to maybe change your mind: Adam gets murdered. Shot from the other side of the street, through the kitchen window, by a 9mm round. The police sort of suspect that Bob did it, but they don't have solid evidence, and in particular they don't have a motive. Adam, Bob and Bob's wife Eve used to be best friends. So they go back to their Flock cameras, and find: (a) Starting about 6 months ago, Eve was going to Adam's place on her lunch break from work regularly, coming out an hour later looking flushed with her clothes in disarray. (b) 5 months ago Bob left home in his car in the evening, looking very angry, and slept in the parking lot of a state park for two nights. (c) Since then, Bob and Eve have not been seen driving together. And Adam has not been to BBQ at Bob's and Eve's house, which he used to go to nearly every weekend. (d) Starting 4 months ago, Bob, who had long been a gun owner, started regularly going to an informal range on BLM land after work, and practicing shooting at 25 yards.

All this information comes from Flock cameras (and similar things), which recognized their license plate numbers, and Bob's face at the range. I think there's enough here to some probably cause warrants, and with some more information or a confession also a conviction. Suddenly Flock cameras are a valuable investigative tool to get a murder conviction. And in this particular case, I'm sure the PD investigators would be able to get a warrant to review the Flock footage, see RickD427's post from above.


No, but it's a starting point. And it is easily automated, since money can be reasonable well measured. And it might be the step that starts a culture change: Yes, government is actually responsible for its screwups, and can be held responsible in a court of law, as a matter of course, not as the rare exception (which in some police departments has sadly become the rule rather than the exception, for example San Jose PD is famous for having to spend a ton of money because some of its officers seem to be out of control, hinting at a systemic training and hiring problem).


The place where I'm very different from most people here on the forum: I'm actually in favor or MORE government, but if AND ONLY IF the government uses its power for good. So for example, CARB is right out, that organization needs to be eat least heavily shrunk and have its wings clipped.
"we're from the govt and we're here to help" lol.... big government rarely improves things sadly. while does other things extremely well like military, mail service, sports, science etc
 
"we're from the govt and we're here to help" lol.... big government rarely improves things sadly. while does other things extremely well like military, mail service, sports, science etc
Agree. Many things government is very bad at. All I need to say is "building inspector", which in most of California has become a machine for preventing development, because NIMBYs don't want a MacMansion next door, not an ADU which uses one extra parking spot on the road, and a noisy remodel is right out. So they elect anti-development politicians to their local city council or county board, which then makes it clear to the director of planning and building that every building done with permits is a demerit on the director's record and will be punished when it comes to the next pay raise. The director then writes a policy that turns building inspectors into raging a**holes., often against their will. A few rich people can still build, because they hire good (expensive) lawyers who force the issue with the city/county in court. My favorite real estate attorney made several hundred thousand bucks dragging our county planning department through state and federal court, and the mansion was built. Those hundreds of thousands would have paid for a nice kitchen or bathroom upgrade, but who cares.

There are also lots of things government is very good at. For example, our sheriff's department is superb, excellent, helpful, friendly, and as far as I can see scrupulously law abiding with lots of respect for the law and for people's rights. I was actually on the phone with them just today for a technical question, and they answer after the second ring, transfer you to the right person, the desk jockey officer gets their supervisor to see whether they can make an exception to help me with my unusual situation, and alas, the supervisor quoted the law which means ... I'm going to have to find some other solution. Not their fault. When we've had neighborhood trouble (which ranges from people stealing firewood and giving it back after a polite discussion on the cell phone with an officer, to having ADW threats, and multiple dead bodies), the sheriff's deputies have been as good as can be. And if they aren't good enough (one time it took them an hour and a half to respond to a serious injury situation combined with DV), they call me on the cell phone to give updates when they're going to be there, why they are late (darn bar fight on a Saturday night), and ask dispatch to at least send the FD to stabilize the patient until they can get there. I would trust them to look at Flock data responsibly. San Jose PD? Not so much.

But we can't have general rules that are built around "one guy trusts one particular agency or not".

(Real life anecdote: Obnoxious neighbor called 911 because of gunfire. Claimed to be hiding in the basement, with bullets hitting their house. The real answer was neighbor redoing his siding with a nail gun. Admittedly at 7pm on a weekend. No bullets and no bullet holes were found. No guns were being shot anywhere near the scene. This did not happen once, but half a dozen times. Obnoxious neighbor is now on the "ignore if they call" list at dispatch. Our attorney got a list of all their 911 calls, and it has over 60 entries in one year. Of which one was a felony DV, one was a serious health crisis with ambulance using flashing lights, and the rest were nonsensical complaints such as the above nail gun.)
 
This thread sucks!

I was hoping it'd be more easily digestible conversation for folks more curious about this stuff but don't take it too seriously.

Ya'll writing an essay for every response.

miles teller tns GIF by Two Night Stand
 
Agree. Many things government is very bad at. All I need to say is "building inspector", which in most of California has become a machine for preventing development, because NIMBYs don't want a MacMansion next door, not an ADU which uses one extra parking spot on the road, and a noisy remodel is right out. So they elect anti-development politicians to their local city council or county board, which then makes it clear to the director of planning and building that every building done with permits is a demerit on the director's record and will be punished when it comes to the next pay raise. The director then writes a policy that turns building inspectors into raging a**holes., often against their will. A few rich people can still build, because they hire good (expensive) lawyers who force the issue with the city/county in court. My favorite real estate attorney made several hundred thousand bucks dragging our county planning department through state and federal court, and the mansion was built. Those hundreds of thousands would have paid for a nice kitchen or bathroom upgrade, but who cares.

There are also lots of things government is very good at. For example, our sheriff's department is superb, excellent, helpful, friendly, and as far as I can see scrupulously law abiding with lots of respect for the law and for people's rights. I was actually on the phone with them just today for a technical question, and they answer after the second ring, transfer you to the right person, the desk jockey officer gets their supervisor to see whether they can make an exception to help me with my unusual situation, and alas, the supervisor quoted the law which means ... I'm going to have to find some other solution. Not their fault. When we've had neighborhood trouble (which ranges from people stealing firewood and giving it back after a polite discussion on the cell phone with an officer, to having ADW threats, and multiple dead bodies), the sheriff's deputies have been as good as can be. And if they aren't good enough (one time it took them an hour and a half to respond to a serious injury situation combined with DV), they call me on the cell phone to give updates when they're going to be there, why they are late (darn bar fight on a Saturday night), and ask dispatch to at least send the FD to stabilize the patient until they can get there. I would trust them to look at Flock data responsibly. San Jose PD? Not so much.

But we can't have general rules that are built around "one guy trusts one particular agency or not".

(Real life anecdote: Obnoxious neighbor called 911 because of gunfire. Claimed to be hiding in the basement, with bullets hitting their house. The real answer was neighbor redoing his siding with a nail gun. Admittedly at 7pm on a weekend. No bullets and no bullet holes were found. No guns were being shot anywhere near the scene. This did not happen once, but half a dozen times. Obnoxious neighbor is now on the "ignore if they call" list at dispatch. Our attorney got a list of all their 911 calls, and it has over 60 entries in one year. Of which one was a felony DV, one was a serious health crisis with ambulance using flashing lights, and the rest were nonsensical complaints such as the above nail gun.)
Lol going to HS in Brentwood (East Bay) I know what you mean on the difference between Brentwood PD, super attentive turbo cops that pounce on the hint of ghetto person crossing from Antioch in an old Altima, and Oakland PD where you're on hold with 911 for 30 min while you get shot to death lol.
 
The issue with the NSA, Palentir, Flock, etc. is that all of this is happening without a warrant. That's the biggest reason it's rife with abuse is that there isn't oversight.
Just to be devils advocate, isn’t the fact that there is an uproar at how many people (police) have been found abusing it, a perfect example of those programs actually having good oversight and accountability? Just like any crime, yes they aren’t stopped initially from abusing it but they are being held accountable it seems.
 
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