Pros and Cons of Optics vs Irons on Handguns

[21SF 2.0]

I’m pretty sure this is a disqualifying question on the DROS form lol that’s crazy

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Students are agreeable to their teachers.

with a dot you line up one point, irons it's two and they are harder to see. It's 100% easier to learn a dot, without question.

 

[rfgCA]

Good teachers tailor their teaching to each individual student

Bad teachers can do that too.

Anything can be argued both ways. Teachers, students, optics and irons. We can go on and on, or did you think there was an end point?

 

[rfgCA]

with a dot you line up one point, irons it's two and they are harder to see. It's 100% easier to learn a dot, without question.

Without question?

Tell that to someone with tremors, anxiety, MS, or some sort of medical condition or physical disability. Do you think they can find the dot as easily as finding a front sight? You can teach that on the first day of class and have them finding the dot by the end of the day, but can they do that next week while someone is barging into the room, and they are busy trying to find the dot because you taught them that is the thing to do.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Without question?

Tell that to someone with tremors, anxiety, MS, or some sort of medical condition or physical disability. Do you think they can find the dot as easily as finding a front sight? You can teach that on the first day of class and have them finding the dot by the end of the day, but can they do that next week while someone is barging into the room, and they are busy trying to find the dot because you taught them that is the thing to do.

Yes I absolutely do think that, without question. Because it's not about finding the front sight it's indexing both sights, if you are front sight focused that also means your target is blurry and your front sight is blurry, if you are target focused that means both sights are blurry. With a dot you can have target focus and still be very aware of where you are putting the dot on target, and you can do it much faster.

 

[rfgCA]

Yes I absolutely do think that, without question. Because it's not about finding the front sight it's indexing both sights, if you are front sight focused that also means your target is blurry and your front sight is blurry, if you are target focused that means both sights are blurry. With a dot you can have target focus and still be very aware of where you are putting the dot on target, and you can do it much faster.

In a world where everyone can find the dot instantly while under the highest levels of stress, even with just 1 day of class, this is true.

 

[sjb323]

Without question?

Tell that to someone with tremors, anxiety, MS, or some sort of medical condition or physical disability. Do you think they can find the dot as easily as finding a front sight? You can teach that on the first day of class and have them finding the dot by the end of the day, but can they do that next week while someone is barging into the room, and they are busy trying to find the dot because you taught them that is the thing to do.

Yes, 99.9999% of the time, it is easier to teach a new shooter how to shoot with a dot. If you want to think otherwise, that's fine, but you are wrong. Don't take my word for it, ask someone else who does this for a living. And.. to think that anyone with a minimal level of experience will actually take the time to get a sight picture with either irons or a dot if they get involved in something is very naive.

At this point, making a case for irons over a dot is ridiculous. The world of small arms has progressed beyond iron sights. There's no going back, and it's for a good reason.

 

[ZChaosFactor]

Bad teachers can do that too.

Anything can be argued both ways. Teachers, students, optics and irons. We can go on and on, or did you think there was an end point?

I mean considering you decided to respond with a non sequitur generic quote instead of responding to actual subject matter it probably wasnt going to go anywhere from the get go.

But for the record im a good teacher and my experience is that no one Ive taught has felt irons were easier to learn than a red dot.

Red dots specifically for beginners gives much more clear and concise feedback than irons. I can't tell you how many new shooters will question their sight picture after a miss with iron sights. With a red dot they are almost always able to tell where the sights were when they pulled the trigger including if they jerked the trigger.

 

[Brandon Breeze]

All you gotta do is go to just about any class and you'll see the advantage of the RDO's pretty clearly.

Nice tight groups in less time typically come from folks with dots.

Larger groups and slower finish times typically go to those running irons.

Obviously there will always be exceptions to the above, but that's pretty much what I've been seeing.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

In a world where everyone can find the dot instantly while under the highest levels of stress, even with just 1 day of class, this is true.

in a world where someone wants to use their gun defensively after a single day of shooting, they should look for a mode of self defense they have more control over until they have more experience. Shouldn't be using a firearm that way if you can't do the absolute bare minimum

 

[rfgCA]

Yes, 99.9999% of the time, it is easier to teach a new shooter how to shoot with a dot. If you want to think otherwise, that's fine, but you are wrong. Don't take my word for it, ask someone else who does this for a living. And.. to think that anyone with a minimal level of experience will actually take the time to get a sight picture with either irons or a dot if they get involved in something is very naive.

At this point, making a case for irons over a dot is ridiculous. The world of small arms has progressed beyond iron sights. There's no going back, and it's for a good reason.

You are taking your love of optics too seriously.

 

[rfgCA]

All you gotta do is go to just about any class and you'll see the advantage of the RDO's pretty clearly.

Nice tight groups in less time typically come from folks with dots.

Larger groups and slower finish times typically go to those running irons.

Obviously there will always be exceptions to the above, but that's pretty much what I've been seeing.

I don't think anyone is saying Optics are no good.

 

[rfgCA]

I mean considering you decided to respond with a non sequitur generic quote instead of responding to actual subject matter it probably wasnt going to go anywhere from the get go.

But for the record im a good teacher and my experience is that no one Ive taught has felt irons were easier to learn than a red dot.

Red dots specifically for beginners gives much more clear and concise feedback than irons. I can't tell you how many new shooters will question their sight picture after a miss with iron sights. With a red dot they are almost always able to tell where the sights were when they pulled the trigger including if they jerked the trigger.

You are right. This is not going anywhere.

 

[KingRansom]

I've tried but just cannot get into a red dot sight on an optic unless it's a 22 for plinking fun. As somebody with a bad astigmatism I deal with that problem first and foremost. I also don't like the bulk of the optic on top and God forbid the optic fails or your battery goes dead while you still have your iron sights you've got a bulky optic sitting on top that you're working around. Everybody's different and there's no right or wrong, just what works best for each individual. There's also part of me that believes that being able to shoot a gun well with iron sights is true shooting without relying on a DOT

 

[ZChaosFactor]

You are right. This is not going anywhere.

I mean yeah when you dont respond with substance, it won't go anywhere. So cool (but inaccurate) chart.

 

[rfgCA]

I mean yeah when you dont respond with substance, it won't go anywhere. So cool (but inaccurate) chart.

That's why the chart was customizable and you can enter and change the values as you please. You're welcome.

I can put all the substance you want in it, but we will just go round and round in circles.

 

[sjb323]

You are taking your love of optics too seriously.

Negative, sir. Limited Division master class shooter here, but things progress. It's just a better tool for the same job.

 

[Brandon Breeze]

I don't think anyone is saying Optics are no good.

Never said that anyone did

 

[bergmen]

Just my $0.02 here. Firearm owner since 1962 when my Dad bought me and my brother .22 bolt action rifles (Marlins) for Christmas that year.

When it comes to sight choices, here are my opinions:

1) I have two favorite EDC handguns, one a DAO revolver (S&W 442) and one a compact 9mm auto (S&W Shield). Both have fixed sights.
2) I pocket carry almost exclusively for a variety of reasons, no holsters.

#1) Any optic would be a snag concern.
#2) I made it a point several years ago to not have ANYTHING that requires batteries on any firearm whether for target, hunting or self defense.

I've played around with red dots before and a handgun with a laser sight. All kind of cool and fun but the red dot required turning it on and adjusting the dot size as well as color (red or green). Okay at the range, not good as a defensive device. The laser sight was more of a "gimmick" to me, okay I guess but not very practical. Cool to be able to knock tin cans around off-hand. One great advantage of the laser sight was a training tool, easy to visually see jerky trigger actions since the laser pointed it out. I don't train anymore so I have no need for that (plus it is dependent on batteries, see #2 above).

I am 75 (will be 76 in a few weeks) and I have decades of "muscle memory" regarding firearms handling. Sight acquisition is second nature to me.

Now these are simply my opinions that work for me. I don't need to defend them or try to convince anyone else to do what I do.

Very interesting spreadsheet though, good work!

Dan

 

[rfgCA]

Negative, sir. Limited Division master class shooter here, but things progress. It's just a better tool for the same job.

How long did it take you to arrive as a Limited Division Master Class Shooter, Sir? Surely a bit more than a couple of days of class.

Being "threat focused" is probably easy for you, because of the time and effort you put in to get to where you're at.

Now I'm not a Master Class shooter. So don't take my word for it that what you're saying is a lot easier said than done.

Let's see this what the 8-time USPC Champion and 3 time IDPA Champ says about this matter

"It's a very very difficult thing to get yourself not to focus on that dot and instead look where you want the bullets to go."

It takes a lot more time to master a red dot than you guys are letting on. Most people aren't Master shooters.

This is not a question of "Which one is better (Optic or Iron)" -- this is a question which one takes longer to learn.