PSA: Purchasing without Real ID

[ZeroFoxGiven]

But is that true that you can't buy a gun if your DL has a middle initial and passport has full middle name? Seems dumb

I've seen it happen at other gun stores also. The gentleman in question had a weird last name, don't remember and was misspelled by one letter between the two IDs and I could not sell him the firearm as the FFL rejected the ID; and the FFL in question was a very laxed, seriously pro 2A but said if they get audited that would be flagged.I would think initial vs spelled out would be the same thing?

 

[BONECUTR]

I've seen it happen at other gun stores also. The gentleman in question had a weird last name, don't remember and was misspelled by one letter between the two IDs and I could not sell him the firearm as the FFL rejected the ID; and the FFL in question was a very laxed, seriously pro 2A but said if they get audited that would be flagged.I would think initial vs spelled out would be the same thing?

I had an employee who went his whole like thinking he had a middle initial only name and when he had to get all the documents to get a real ID found out he has a middle name.

I have had multiple "federal limit apply ID's" where say the last name in "Ramos".... then 10 days later they bring in a passport/birth certificate or something that says the last name is "Ramos Hernandez"

I had a peace officer who I was running his DROS and he gave me his ID and Law Enforcement credentials and his Drivers license and they both had completely different names on them. I though maybe his DL was made for undercover work or something but he was like "oh....I didn't notice the name was wrong"... He had it for over a year.....

 

[Gawernator]

I had an employee who went his whole like thinking he had a middle initial only name and when he had to get all the documents to get a real ID found out he has a middle name.

I have had multiple "federal limit apply ID's" where say the last name in "Ramos".... then 10 days later they bring in a passport/birth certificate or something that says the last name is "Ramos Hernandez"

I had a peace officer who I was running his DROS and he gave me his ID and Law Enforcement credentials and his Drivers license and they both had completely different names on them. I though maybe his DL was made for undercover work or something but he was like "oh....I didn't notice the name was wrong"... He had it for over a year.....

Yeah that’s crazy lol but mine is just Andrew and A nothing like that

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Finally gave in and got REAL ID. The whole process including my time at DMV and online was maybe an hour.

So, I’ve been using my passport and DL combo to buy guns since I turned 18 and I’ve never had an issue, until now.

I’ve been trying to buy the HK VP9A1 K before the rebate expires and it seems like Turners is the only store in the Sacramento area that stocks them or even knows what they are. However two different managers told me they can’t sell me a gun because my passport has my full middle name and my DL has an initial. He stated that DOJ cracked down on them for doing sales that way and now they can’t do it.

I don’t know how accurate that is since for over a decade I’ve been buying that way and it’s never come up as an issue, I have bought 3 guns this year even.

TLDR if anyone like me never got REAL ID because you have your passport, I guess you might as well just get it to avoid problems at Turners or other stores.

It takes about two weeks to get your card in the mail so I’m basically going to be buying the gun within a couple days of the rebate ending hopefully. DMV worker told me 10 days probably but it can take up to 4 weeks.

Also Turner’s manager offered me a 5% military discount on the gun, that’s nice.

REAL ID is the way to go!

 

[coelacanth]

Knowing that I can just drop by at my FFL and make a purchase (into Jail, with 3 per month max, sigh) whenever with DL and CCW cards, which I carry 100% of time, is a good -- or very bad -- thing.

 

[iloveredmeat]

Where does DOJ say ‘match EXACTLY’? 11 CCR §4045.1(c) says ‘differs from,’ and DOJ's own Initial Statement of Reasons says subsection (c) addresses discrepancies caused by a ‘name-changing event.’ There has been no name-changing event here; the DL abbreviates Andrew as A. If DOJ has issued dealer guidance specifically stating that a middle initial versus the corresponding full middle name constitutes a §4045.1(c) mismatch, I'd genuinely like to see it.

I'm not sure this is the correct interpretation otherwise how have I bought 20 guns this way with zero problems from DOJ

I have always respected your posts and enjoyed your input, and you're clearly a smart guy, so I'm surprised you're questioning this... the word 'EXACTLY' is my word (my bad?)...

But it seems to me that "if... the name... differs from" is the same as "needs to match exactly"... "John J. James" absolutely 'differs from' "John Jeff James". They differ, they are not exactly the same.

(c) For all eligibility checks, if the applicant's name as it appears on the federal non-compliant California driver license or identification card differs from the name on the proof of lawful presence document submitted in accordance with subdivision (b), the applicant shall also submit, as specified in subdivisions (d) through (g), one of the following certified documents:
(1) An adoption document that contains the legal name of the applicant as a result of the adoption.
(2) A name change document that contains the applicant's legal name both before and, as a result of, the name change.
(3) A marriage certificate.
(4) A dissolution of marriage document that contains the legal name of the applicant as a result of the court action.
(5) A certificate, declaration or registration document verifying the formation of a domestic partnership.
(6) A dissolution of domestic partnership document that contains the legal name of the applicant as a result of the court action.

I'm far from a lawyer, and not here to argue the laws, I was genuinely just trying to explain the requirements as I understand them and have to follow.

If you disagree with any FFL's policy, I would strongly suggest you reach out to the DOJ for clarification, as they are the agency that makes the rules FFLs are required to follow.

Bowing out.

 

[iloveredmeat]

I know that but they didn't offer it up on other guns Ive bought there

That's not cool. I would grab a manager and let them know about this.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Knowing that I can just drop by at my FFL and make a purchase (into Jail, with 3 per month max, sigh) whenever with DL and CCW cards, which I carry 100% of time, is a good -- or very bad -- thing.

No 3 per month restriction with FFL03/COE.

 

[Gawernator]

I have always respected your posts and enjoyed your input, and you're clearly a smart guy, so I'm surprised you're questioning this... the word 'EXACTLY' is my word (my bad?)...

But it seems to me that "if... the name... differs from" is the same as "needs to match exactly"... "John J. James" absolutely 'differs from' "John Jeff James". They differ, they are not exactly the same.



I'm far from a lawyer, and not here to argue the laws, I was genuinely just trying to explain the requirements as I understand them and have to follow.

If you disagree with any FFL's policy, I would strongly suggest you reach out to the DOJ for clarification, as they are the agency that makes the rules FFLs are required to follow.

Bowing out.

? Not sure why you are being defensive over me asking for the regulation lol. It doesn't seem to state anything about middle initial vs middle name. Which is probably why it hasn't been an issue for like 15 years

 

[iloveredmeat]

? Not sure why you are being defensive over me asking for the regulation lol. It doesn't seem to state anything about middle initial vs middle name. Which is probably why it hasn't been an issue for like 15 years

Didn't mean to sound defensive, I'm just trying to be respectful, and I hope this helps explain it.

But, this seems so obvious to me - An initial is different from a name. Initial "J." could stand for Jeff, Julie, etc. (or I've seen plenty who simply have an initial that doesn't stand for anything).

And if the name on one document 'differs from' (is not exactly the same) as what is on a 'supporting' document, then they are not the same name, and you need to correct one or the other.

It's definitely a newer thing... over the last two years, the DOJ has repeatedly emphasized that the names on documents can not differ at all. I just saw another note from the DOJ mandating that the original supporting document (passport or birth cert) has to be presented in person. No photos or emails or copies.

Alright, now I'm respectfully bowing out for real. I genuinely hope this helps people understand the law and why the FFL's need to comply.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Didn't mean to sound defensive, I'm just trying to be respectful, and I hope this helps explain it.

But, this seems so obvious to me - An initial is different from a name. Initial "J." could stand for Jeff, Julie, etc. (or I've seen plenty who simply have an initial that doesn't stand for anything).

And if the name on one document 'differs from' (is not exactly the same) as what is on a 'supporting' document, then they are not the same name, and you need to correct one or the other.

It's definitely a newer thing... over the last two years, the DOJ has repeatedly emphasized that the names on documents can not differ at all. I just saw another note from the DOJ mandating that the original supporting document (passport or birth cert) has to be presented in person. No photos or emails or copies.

Alright, now I'm respectfully bowing out for real. I genuinely hope this helps people understand the law and why the FFL's need to comply.

I ran into this exact issue buying my first PPT gun. I am a Jr. (named after my Dad) but my supporting documents didn't consistently have this shown. It also doesn't work well with a lot of systems that don't accommodate Jr.and Sr., not to mention people who cannot be bothered to add it when and where necessary.

I had to scramble to get a fishing license from Big Five just to get something official to match the Jr. Thankfully the seller of my first PPT purchase is a patient man.

So, with my REAL ID I dropped it so it's no longer an issue. All of my supporting documents now match.

 

[Gawernator]

Didn't mean to sound defensive, I'm just trying to be respectful, and I hope this helps explain it.

But, this seems so obvious to me - An initial is different from a name. Initial "J." could stand for Jeff, Julie, etc. (or I've seen plenty who simply have an initial that doesn't stand for anything).

And if the name on one document 'differs from' (is not exactly the same) as what is on a 'supporting' document, then they are not the same name, and you need to correct one or the other.

It's definitely a newer thing... over the last two years, the DOJ has repeatedly emphasized that the names on documents can not differ at all. I just saw another note from the DOJ mandating that the original supporting document (passport or birth cert) has to be presented in person. No photos or emails or copies.

Alright, now I'm respectfully bowing out for real. I genuinely hope this helps people understand the law and why the FFL's need to comply.

Yeah that makes sense to me. I’m just not understanding why it’s a problem when I’ve done probably 20 transfers in 15 years and it was never an issue until this week.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Yeah that makes sense to me. I’m just not understanding why it’s a problem when I’ve done probably 20 transfers in 15 years and it was never an issue until this week.

Really depends on the diligence of the shop. It's not an issue until it is. The shop where I went to do my first PPT buy were real sticklers.