Red Dots Are a Scam?

[Brandon Breeze]

I'll save everyone the time of watching the video. The answer is Yes... and No

 

[Roxerz]

Decent dots are so cheap now I'm not sure why it's even an argument. It's like a backup camera on a car, they all have them now lol

I was at the range 3 hours ago since I picked up my Hellcat Pro Comp today. An elderly guy right next to my lane was inquiring about it and I let him fire a mag. He reports back to me, "that was the first time I've ever used a red [green] dot". Some people just haven't got with the times.

 

[cali_jazz]

You can just point shoot within 10 yards, didn’t know anyone was arguing against that.

The video showed (with 3 levels of shooters) that within 10 yards there was essentially little difference in speed or accuracy between irons, RDS and even NO SIGHTS. As you would expect at longer distances the dot was superior followed by irons, and no sights was pretty horrible.

I've actually shot no sights a few times myself and was surprised how accurate I was able to shoot at 7 yards.

 

[Roxerz]

I did an NRA teacher class this past weekend.
The final test was 45 feet, had to put 16 rounds out of 20 into a 6" group.
3 people did not pass initially, want to guess if they were iron sights or dots? They were all the same.

That reminds me in boot, a guy shot 1/50 on the m16. He wanted to be Security Forces.. After getting yelled at, we found out he was closing the wrong eye. Some people don't got a lot going up there lol.

 

[Gawernator]

In basic we had a female that wouldn't stop shooting the ceiling

That reminds me in boot, a guy shot 1/50 on the m16. He wanted to be Security Forces.. After getting yelled at, we found out he was closing the wrong eye. Some people don't got a lot going up there lol.

 

[Shellbackitup]

I thought I had a defective green dot that I had spent several hundred of dollars on. The red dot of the same mfg and model I got in the same shipment was fine, but the green one was a diagonal splotch that took up 1/6 of the view.

Then I took a picture of the red dot with my phone which showed a perfect dot, and then took a picture of the green, expecting it to show the problem and it was a perfect dot. Uh-oh...

And that's how I learned astigmatism can be color dependent. I can't use green dots at all, but red ones are fine.

Go figure

 

[rodralig]

I've actually shot no sights a few times myself and was surprised how accurate I was able to shoot at 7 yards.

I’d say your natural point of aim and grip were probably sufficiently dialed in. Do you practice pretty regularly, even if it’s just dry fire?

From what I’ve seen anecdotally watching others shoot, no-sight or point shooting can work, but only if the shooter already has a solid foundation. Without that, yeah, they might still get hits, but the question is whether those hits are accurate enough for the situation, especially when you have to account for the background, foreground, and everything else around the target.

Simple version: nothing is magic, and none will make up for a weak foundation.


For the original YouTube video, I’d actually like to reverse the test plan.

Start with no sights first, then iron sights, then red dot - instead of doing it the other way around. That would be a more interesting progression to watch.

And that's how I learned astigmatism can be color dependent. I can't use green dots at all, but red ones are fine.

Same here. Everyone says green is supposed to be better for astigmatism, and I do have a slight one. But as I found out, green just doesn’t work for my eyes. I’m sticking with red.

 

[Roxerz]

I thought I had a defective green dot that I had spent several hundred of dollars on. The red dot of the same mfg and model I got in the same shipment was fine, but the green one was a diagonal splotch that took up 1/6 of the view.

Then I took a picture of the red dot with my phone which showed a perfect dot, and then took a picture of the green, expecting it to show the problem and it was a perfect dot. Uh-oh...

And that's how I learned astigmatism can be color dependent. I can't use green dots at all, but red ones are fine.

Go figure

I actually just had this problem yesterday and came to the same conclusion. I ran it through Gemini and it said the same thing to take a photo of the dot and have others verify. My wife and I both see sort of what you are saying. I know I am red-green colorblind and just figured my green colorblindness might've been worse in this situation but nope.

How I describe it as a waxing or waning gibbous with a diagonal ray coming out


Just a few years I closed the car door on my eye when I was trying to rush to grab something from the valet. I scratched my cornea badly so wonder if that attributed to this issue.

What Gemini said:

It is very common for shooters to notice a difference in dot clarity between optics, but the issue is almost certainly with your eyes rather than the hardware.

When a red dot appears crisp but a green dot (or a different red dot) appears blurry, smeared, or "starbursting," it is typically a sign of astigmatism.

Why this happens​

• The Eye, Not the Optic: Astigmatism is an imperfection in the curvature of your cornea or lens. Because red dot sights use a projected LED light rather than a physical crosshair, your eye's irregular shape bends that light unevenly, causing it to distort.
• Why one looks different: You might have noticed the Holosun looked better because your eyes can perceive different colors differently, or because the brightness level on that specific optic was set lower. Even for those without astigmatism, turning the brightness up higher than necessary can cause the dot to "bloom" and look fuzzy.

 

[Gawernator]

I actually just had this problem yesterday and came to the same conclusion. I ran it through Gemini and it said the same thing to take a photo of the dot and have others verify. My wife and I both see sort of what you are saying. I know I am red-green colorblind and just figured my green colorblindness might've been worse in this situation but nope.

How I describe it as a waxing or waning gibbous with a diagonal ray coming out
View attachment 216147

Just a few years I closed the car door on my eye when I was trying to rush to grab something from the valet. I scratched my cornea badly so wonder if that attributed to this issue.

What Gemini said:

It's very normal, also where did you see the dot? I get the starburst effect indoors pretty often especially if the brightness is high, but outdoors the dot will be a perfect circle most of the time. I have 20/10 vision too so it's just one of those things, many people have some sort of astigmatism. Also red/green colorblindness has nothing to do with the dot. I also fail the color blindness books but luckily did the LANTERN test in basic to keep my intel job.

 

[cali_jazz]

I’d say your natural point of aim and grip were probably sufficiently dialed in. Do you practice pretty regularly, even if it’s just dry fire?

From what I’ve seen anecdotally watching others shoot, no-sight or point shooting can work, but only if the shooter already has a solid foundation. Without that, yeah, they might still get hits, but the question is whether those hits are accurate enough for the situation, especially when you have to account for the background, foreground, and everything else around the target.

Simple version: nothing is magic, and none will make up for a weak foundation.

Yes, I practice weekly.

Agree with all your points. I started with irons but all of my guns have optics now; I come from the "rather have it and not need it that need it and not have it" camp.

 

[grandpapeepap]

i got a pistol optic for the first time for my 10mm pistol but still use irons on my 9mm. Mainly cause im a cheapo but its not a red dot so that makes it not a scam

 

[Skilly]

Form is ultimately the culprit. With shooting being a perishable skill and grip is the first to suffer. Just presenting RDS is gonna show your grip shortcomings as you roll the gun around in your hand to try and find the dot (opening and closing eyes). A good shooter at 10 yards, and well practiced, should be on the target without their eyes open (not recommending that!).

I think stick to what you train on. Ive fully leaned into red dots; if I use irons, for me personally Im better off relying on my grip than trying retrain my eyes. Change those batteries every year on your birthday!

 

[Shellbackitup]

Form is ultimately the culprit. With shooting being a perishable skill and grip is the first to suffer. Just presenting RDS is gonna show your grip shortcomings as you roll the gun around in your hand to try and find the dot (opening and closing eyes). A good shooter at 10 yards, and well practiced, should be on the target without their eyes open (not recommending that!).

I think stick to what you train on. Ive fully leaned into red dots; if I use irons, for me personally Im better off relying on my grip than trying retrain my eyes. Change those batteries every year on your birthday!

I like the yearly idea, I currently change the batteries in my smoke detectors, flashlights, and red-dots, every year on the start/end of Daylight Savings, but batteries are expensive and last longer than 6 months usually

 

[Gawernator]

Crazy Trijicon claims 6 years with the RCR on setting 5. I'm usually on 7-8 so I imagine that's more like 2 years

 

[ar15robert]

handguns i still prefer irons my eyes are still good enough for them and i can shoot them good.Rifles i run a red dot on my 10.5 ar since my eyes do have trouble on that with the rear site near my eye and the front sight where my eyes transition although i like to shoot that rifle for 60 yards and under.I do have irons on a colt a2 that i can still do decent with irons.

My ccw gun i prefer irons anyways i like them small ans less stuff on them i do practice often and can shoot it very good for its size(canik mc9)

 

[NeilDown]

Biggest difference for me was going to shooting with both eyes open - dots are great for that.
I am cross eye dominant, so it was more natural to shoot with both eyes open for pistol.

Almost gave up on dots initially, then took a really good class with Saber Tactics and was surprised how good I got with it.

 

[Ktm45]

Biggest difference for me was going to shooting with both eyes open - dots are great for that.
I am cross eye dominant, so it was more natural to shoot with both eyes open for pistol.

Almost gave up on dots initially, then took a really good class with Saber Tactics and was surprised how good I got with it.

Neil down have you ever tried occluding your red dot?? I’ve always shot with both eyes open….well for the last 20 years at least but I still tape my dots every now and then.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

"Scam" is a wildly inappropriate word as relates to dots (not all red). Trend? Yes. Scam? No.

Dots I think are objectively better for distance, especially 10 yards and up, though a very competent shooter will do well regardless, but they would likely match or exceed their performance with a dot.

Irons I think are objectively better for CCW and ease-of-carrying due to less bulk and better concealment.

So, it really depends on use-case. I know it's probably ridiculous to have a dot on my BG 2.0, but the CCW qualifying is at 5-10-15 yards in my county and I wanted to train with a dot like I do my other guns.

 

[cali_jazz]

"Scam" is a wildly inappropriate word as relates to dots (not all red). Trend? Yes. Scam? No.

Dots I think are objectively better for distance, especially 10 yards and up, though a very competent shooter will do well regardless, but they would likely match or exceed their performance with a dot.

Irons I think are objectively better for CCW and ease-of-carrying due to less bulk and concealment.

So, it really depends on use-case. I know it's probably ridiculous to have a dot on my BG 2.0, but the CCW qualifying is at 5-10-15 yards in my county and I wanted to train with a dot like I do my other guns.

I don't think it's ridiculous at all, especially with the (often) off-center BG sights. I have 2 pebbles waiting to be installed when I can find the time.

 

[chiroken007]

I don't think it's ridiculous at all, especially with the (often) off-center BG sights. I have 2 pebbles waiting to be installed when I can find the time.

Speaking from a VERY foolish experience. It is not a cowitnessing optic with stock front site. I destroyed my pebble because I was in a hurry zeroing it tired late at night before a range day.

I didn’t go grab my bore sight and it cost me $230.