River city gun exchange spam

[gorgothmog]

I have been trying to PPT a firearm here, their rules are ridiculous. The fees are astronomical, they charge me $80 storage for two days, and they do not deliver on an undetermined.
My only suggestion is to never do business at this establishment
What an absolute scam money grab.

Get an FFL03 and COE. Guaranteed you'll never have any issues buying a firearm, again. It's continuous eligibility monitoring, and takes its dats feeds from a ton of different places and aggregates it. $30 every three years federally, and $20 a year to renew state annually is a damn bargain.

 

[GunHoHulk]

Key words are cannot legally deliver, meaning prohibited. This was an undetermined status so the penal code doesn't allow me to return with no waiting period.

The $80 storage fee is still a scummy move. Seems to me it’s going to cost more in the long run too. Last time I did a PPT at The Gun Range I bought a 590 I didn’t need just because I wanted to give them the business due to the customer friendly policies. If they were trying to screw me out of a storage fee I’d say F right off.

 

[echo1]

What I’m saying isn’t “liability fear-mongering” it’s basic business risk management. You must not have ever owned or run a business, especially one with these types of risks to the business.

To be clear: I’m not claiming there’s a specific statute that literally says “an FFL will 100% be held liable if they release a firearm to someone on an undetermined background check.”

If we’re being technical, the reason shops don’t release on “undetermined” isn’t because of one specific statute that says “you are liable” it’s because they have to follow the background check rules and protect their business license. If they fail to do that and illegally transfer a firearm, they can be held accountable in ATF compliance actions, fines, or loss of license. Is this a game you would want to play where your livelihood depends on your business? All to help someone that you don't even know?

“Undetermined” = unresolved eligibility.

Perhaps you should open up your own FFL and advertise that you will release firearms to ALL undetermined persons, sounds like it would do incredibly well! For about a week until you're shut down.

It's all conjecture on your part and you're full of yourself. Why would any FFL get shut down because they release? That's a retarded statement Homer. The onus is on the DOJ, they give/gave permission for the FFL to release on undetermined "AT THEIR OWN DISCRECTION". That doesn't absolve the DOJ from any potential repercussion. The reason FFLs are hesitant and balless is because the lawyers advise them not to release, which is understandable for them to run scared versus throw money at a dog fight.
I have personal experience on the delay/undetermined.
When Harris was the AG, 2011, the delays started in and ramping up. I got a delay on a NFA lower (not even a whole weapon). At the time the delay action was new(ish) to the DOJ, and when you got one, they assigned a "case worker" to your application. In my case the lady handling my 4473 was cordial and helpful. She informed me that the delay was caused by a felony vehicular arrest in 1970 (I was 18). I informed her that the matter was resolved as a misdemeanor. She said to go to the court where the charge was tried and get a copy of the disposition. The court in question was the only court in that county that didn't have internet access. I had to drive 80 miles to stand in line at the court clerk's office only to be told they don't keep misdemeanor records past 1975 (in 2011). I wrote a letter to my case worker at the DOJ, explaining what the court clerk said and reminding them that an arrest was not a conviction. Within a week I got a call from the lady at the DOJ saying my FFL had been contacted, the 4473 processed/approved and that I shouldn't have any issues again involving these charges. From then on, I always asked a new to me FFL what their policy was on a delay. I had delays a couple years later, but the half dozen FFLs I use say phuck you DOJ and release (they have balls or better knowledge and lawyers). Since 2018-19 I've had 9 consecutive delays with an undetermined, a couple occurred during the 1 in 30 fiasco, which really put a crimp on my colleting. PAX

 

[Brandon Breeze]

It's all conjecture on your part and you're full of yourself. Why would any FFL get shut down because they release? That's a retarded statement Homer. The onus is on the DOJ, they give/gave permission for the FFL to release on undetermined "AT THEIR OWN DISCRECTION". That doesn't absolve the DOJ from any potential repercussion. The reason FFLs are hesitant and balless is because the lawyers advise them not to release, which is understandable for them to run scared versus throw money at a dog fight.
I have personal experience on the delay/undetermined.
When Harris was the AG, 2011, the delays started in and ramping up. I got a delay on a NFA lower (not even a whole weapon). At the time the delay action was new(ish) to the DOJ, and when you got one, they assigned a "case worker" to your application. In my case the lady handling my 4473 was cordial and helpful. She informed me that the delay was caused by a felony vehicular arrest in 1970 (I was 18). I informed her that the matter was resolved as a misdemeanor. She said to go to the court where the charge was tried and get a copy of the disposition. The court in question was the only court in that county that didn't have internet access. I had to drive 80 miles to stand in line at the court clerk's office only to be told they don't keep misdemeanor records past 1975 (in 2011). I wrote a letter to my case worker at the DOJ, explaining what the court clerk said and reminding them that an arrest was not a conviction. Within a week I got a call from the lady at the DOJ saying my FFL had been contacted, the 4473 processed/approved and that I shouldn't have any issues again involving these charges. From then on, I always asked a new to me FFL what their policy was on a delay. I had delays a couple years later, but the half dozen FFLs I use say phuck you DOJ and release (they have balls or better knowledge and lawyers). Since 2018-19 I've had 9 consecutive delays with an undetermined, a couple occurred during the 1 in 30 fiasco, which really put a crimp on my colleting. PAX

No conjecture, just the reality of running a highly regulated business in California. Resorting to name calling rather than stating facts actually relevant to the broad issue of folks with undetermined status... Your one off scenario is worthless here.

Sure, DOJ says release on undetermined is at the FFL’s discretion. Everyone here agrees on that. What you’re glossing over is that discretion cuts both ways. DOJ "allowing" discretion does not equal immunity from downstream consequences.

No one is claiming there’s a statute that says “automatic shutdown if you release on undetermined.” That’s a strawman. They may not shut down an FFL for releasing to undetermined directly, but they can always dig deeper. I'm doubting you've been through a full FFL audit by the sound of things. What is real is:

• ATF audits
• DOJ scrutiny
• Civil exposure
• License revocation risk based on “patterns and practices”
• And the cost of defending yourself even when you’re technically right

You’re also making my point for me: lawyers advise against it. Exactly. Most FFLs listen to their attorneys (surprise surprise) because keeping the doors open matters more than winning a philosophical argument with DOJ. Ask Sterling how that worked out for him. Running “ballsy” doesn’t pay rent, bills or salaries when a license is yanked or tied up for years. You obviously have zero clue how to run a business, let alone a business under incredible scrutiny every moment of the day. Do you think a small, single FFL has the money to just throw around and win any and all suits, claims or otherwise brought against them? Look at Bass Pro or similar, they won't do half the things that RCGE will do, yet you likely wouldn't take this position on Bass Pro. Take a look around at how many FFLs are left in CA. Do you want them all to be shuttered permanently just to release to someone of "undetermined" status? Then there will be no one left to sell firearms to anyone, undetermined or otherwise. Great argument!

Your personal experience with delays is valid for you, but it’s completely irrelevant to how someone else’s business chooses to manage risk. An FFL isn’t obligated to absorb legal or financial exposure just because CA/DOJ created a broken system that is far from definitive from anyone's observation point.

There’s a reason most shops in CA won’t release on undetermined, and it’s not ignorance or cowardice, it’s survival. Sacramento used to have plenty of gun shops. We don’t anymore. How about the Bay Area? Even worse. That’s not an accident. Sac Black Rifle for example used to do ALL the grey area stuff. Now? Hardly anything at all, again, not by accident. It's not worth a couple extra bucks if you sacrifice your entire business.

If some shops choose to release and accept that risk, cool, that’s their call. RCGE choosing not to doesn’t make them a scam, shady, or incompetent. It makes them conservative operators in a hostile regulatory environment. Being one very few remaining FFL's in Sacramento CITY, I'd bet they are under a lot more scrutiny that those in Sac County.

We’re not going to agree here, and that’s fine, but pretending most FFLs are dumb or scared because they don’t run their business your way doesn’t make the argument stronger. Go open your own shop since you like to pretend that you're so well educated on the topic and have such huge "balls"

 

[echo1]

You're correct, we're not going to agree on anything except that FFLs have a rough row to hoe, and many haven't stuck it out and more will close. Trying to open a gun shop in this state's environment is suicidal. What any particular LGS decides is store policy is fine by me. PAX

 

[River City Gun Exchange]

The $80 storage fee is still a scummy move. Seems to me it’s going to cost more in the long run too. Last time I did a PPT at The Gun Range I bought a 590 I didn’t need just because I wanted to give them the business due to the customer friendly policies. If they were trying to screw me out of a storage fee I’d say F right off.

It's not an $80 storage fee though. It's mostly consisting of a fee for our labor to transfer it back to the buyer and the time and labor to conduct that paperwork.

 

[GunHoHulk]

It's not an $80 storage fee though. It's mostly consisting of a fee for our labor to transfer it back to the buyer and the time and labor to conduct that paperwork.

I stand corrected and have a better understanding after re-reading the O.P. Maybe I came in a little hot as storage fees are a pet peeve of mine after I had a shady shop in the area hit me with one for a standard PPT scenario.

 

[gorgothmog]

It's not an $80 storage fee though. It's mostly consisting of a fee for our labor to transfer it back to the buyer and the time and labor to conduct that paperwork.

Legally you can only charge $10, but I get the conundrum. How much does the counter clerk make an hour? How long does a PPT usually take? Does the counter clerk get benefits like health insurance? Are PPTs happening or allowed when other higher volume/margin sales could be transacting, instead? How much actual storage space do you have onsite? There's a cost when you take photocopies for purposes of doing the PPT. You'll need a new toner cartridge, eventually. Point is, it all adds up.

However, there are things you can do to also improve workflows. Take @ugimports as a case study. It is literally the most efficient experience I've ever had at an FFL. I couldn't even remember the workflow it all happened so quick, other than I used a keyboard, if I recall. Far West Photography is another case in efficiency. Maybe the key is reworking a workflow, setting aside specific times where you will do PPTs when it's slow, allowing a sign up on your website to help flow control, or something else. I think we all expect to pay $100 plus DROS for transfer fees of inbound merchandise from another vendor, but $80 + $10 + $37.19 is a bit steep for a PPT, and is almost in the range of it being a deterrence (which could also be the point). However, in no one's universe is $10 justifiable on a Saturday when you're stacked 8 customers deep who want to pay real money and you're trying to run a business.

There's a way out of this in a way where everyone's needs can be met if we realize that $10 isn't enough, FFLs could do more to improve their workflows, cut off walk-in access for PPTs, and do a break-even cost analysis of a PPT transaction and present that up front at the counter somewhere, I think that meeting somewhere in the $20-$40 dollar range becomes a realistic expectation. Hasn't it been $10 forever at this point?

 

[1911whore]

Yeah last time I did a PPT at River city, thy made me pay the ppt fees and dros in CASH and wouldn’t take my debit card for those fees. I assume it was to dodge paying taxes on that or to be cheap as hell and not have a card fee. They directed me to a restaurant with an atm next door that had a 7 dollar service charge.

They are slow, generally rude, and act like you are wasting their time even if you are spending thousands

 

[gorgothmog]

I would do something like charge a $100 storage fee but then say you can use it as store credit towards ammo upon pickup?

 

[River City Gun Exchange]

Legally you can only charge $10, but I get the conundrum. How much does the counter clerk make an hour? How long does a PPT usually take? Does the counter clerk get benefits like health insurance? Are PPTs happening or allowed when other higher volume/margin sales could be transacting, instead? How much actual storage space do you have onsite? There's a cost when you take photocopies for purposes of doing the PPT. You'll need a new toner cartridge, eventually. Point is, it all adds up.

However, there are things you can do to also improve workflows. Take @ugimports as a case study. It is literally the most efficient experience I've ever had at an FFL. I couldn't even remember the workflow it all happened so quick, other than I used a keyboard, if I recall. Far West Photography is another case in efficiency. Maybe the key is reworking a workflow, setting aside specific times where you will do PPTs when it's slow, allowing a sign up on your website to help flow control, or something else. I think we all expect to pay $100 plus DROS for transfer fees of inbound merchandise from another vendor, but $80 + $10 + $37.19 is a bit steep for a PPT, and is almost in the range of it being a deterrence (which could also be the point). However, in no one's universe is $10 justifiable on a Saturday when you're stacked 8 customers deep who want to pay real money and you're trying to run a business.

There's a way out of this in a way where everyone's needs can be met if we realize that $10 isn't enough, FFLs could do more to improve their workflows, cut off walk-in access for PPTs, and do a break-even cost analysis of a PPT transaction and present that up front at the counter somewhere, I think that meeting somewhere in the $20-$40 dollar range becomes a realistic expectation. Hasn't it been $10 forever at this point?

The original sale is only $10 + $37.19. If the sale does not go through it is no longer a PPT and thus becomes a dealer transfer/return to owner, so the $10 cap no longer applies.

 

[phonso302]

80.00 storage fee? All I need to hear to never step foot in that store...

 

[Pmarq]

It's all conjecture on your part and you're full of yourself. Why would any FFL get shut down because they release? That's a retarded statement Homer. The onus is on the DOJ, they give/gave permission for the FFL to release on undetermined "AT THEIR OWN DISCRECTION". That doesn't absolve the DOJ from any potential repercussion. The reason FFLs are hesitant and balless is because the lawyers advise them not to release, which is understandable for them to run scared versus throw money at a dog fight.
I have personal experience on the delay/undetermined.
When Harris was the AG, 2011, the delays started in and ramping up. I got a delay on a NFA lower (not even a whole weapon). At the time the delay action was new(ish) to the DOJ, and when you got one, they assigned a "case worker" to your application. In my case the lady handling my 4473 was cordial and helpful. She informed me that the delay was caused by a felony vehicular arrest in 1970 (I was 18). I informed her that the matter was resolved as a misdemeanor. She said to go to the court where the charge was tried and get a copy of the disposition. The court in question was the only court in that county that didn't have internet access. I had to drive 80 miles to stand in line at the court clerk's office only to be told they don't keep misdemeanor records past 1975 (in 2011). I wrote a letter to my case worker at the DOJ, explaining what the court clerk said and reminding them that an arrest was not a conviction. Within a week I got a call from the lady at the DOJ saying my FFL had been contacted, the 4473 processed/approved and that I shouldn't have any issues again involving these charges. From then on, I always asked a new to me FFL what their policy was on a delay. I had delays a couple years later, but the half dozen FFLs I use say phuck you DOJ and release (they have balls or better knowledge and lawyers). Since 2018-19 I've had 9 consecutive delays with an undetermined, a couple occurred during the 1 in 30 fiasco, which really put a crimp on my colleting. PAX

LMAO

 

[GunHoHulk]

Legally you can only charge $10, but I get the conundrum. How much does the counter clerk make an hour? How long does a PPT usually take? Does the counter clerk get benefits like health insurance? Are PPTs happening or allowed when other higher volume/margin sales could be transacting, instead? How much actual storage space do you have onsite? There's a cost when you take photocopies for purposes of doing the PPT. You'll need a new toner cartridge, eventually. Point is, it all adds up.

However, there are things you can do to also improve workflows. Take @ugimports as a case study. It is literally the most efficient experience I've ever had at an FFL. I couldn't even remember the workflow it all happened so quick, other than I used a keyboard, if I recall. Far West Photography is another case in efficiency. Maybe the key is reworking a workflow, setting aside specific times where you will do PPTs when it's slow, allowing a sign up on your website to help flow control, or something else. I think we all expect to pay $100 plus DROS for transfer fees of inbound merchandise from another vendor, but $80 + $10 + $37.19 is a bit steep for a PPT, and is almost in the range of it being a deterrence (which could also be the point). However, in no one's universe is $10 justifiable on a Saturday when you're stacked 8 customers deep who want to pay real money and you're trying to run a business.

There's a way out of this in a way where everyone's needs can be met if we realize that $10 isn't enough, FFLs could do more to improve their workflows, cut off walk-in access for PPTs, and do a break-even cost analysis of a PPT transaction and present that up front at the counter somewhere, I think that meeting somewhere in the $20-$40 dollar range becomes a realistic expectation. Hasn't it been $10 forever at this point?

80.00 storage fee? All I need to hear to never step foot in that store...

I jumped to the same conclusion but if you get all the details the storage fee was for a failed PPT that they had to transfer back to the original owne. Way more understandable than if it was an $80 fee for a standard PPT. Sucks for the seller but sucks for the FFL too.

 

[foothillman]

I understand that River City Gun Exchange Inc runs its business as the lawyers recommend.
Having to make the appointment and wait to be called up...hit with "we do not release on undetermined" is a little problematic in my opinion.
The take it or leave it after jumping through all the original requirements appears that RCGE has little respect for my time.

Potential customers should have a understanding about using RCGE.
Every possible situation of not being to able to complete a transfer can not be addressed but the top few can.
"our policy" not "the law"
Approved, Delayed, Undetermined, Denied, Rejected, Stolen and fee for storing/returning firearm to seller is a good start.
Updating is a very good start: https://www.rcgunexchange.com/ccms/default/assets/File/TRANSFERS 01_08_2026_2.pdf

Bureau of Firearms

Welcome to the California DOJ Bureau of Firearms The Bureau of Firearms serves the people of California through education, regulation, and enforcement actions regarding the manufacture, sales, ownership, safety training, and transfer of firearms. Bureau of Firearms staff will be leaders in...

oag.ca.gov

Codes Display Text

28220
(4) If the department is unable to ascertain the purchaser’s eligibility to possess, receive, own, or purchase a firearm for any of the reasons described in paragraph (1), within 30 days of the dealer’s original submission of purchaser information to the department pursuant to this section, the department shall immediately do both of the following:

(A) Notify the dealer and the dealer may then immediately transfer the firearm to the purchaser, upon the dealer’s recording on the register or record of electronic transfer the date that the firearm is transferred, the dealer signing the register or record of electronic transfer indicating delivery of the firearm to that purchaser, and the purchaser signing the register or record of electronic transfer acknowledging the receipt of the firearm on the date that the firearm is delivered to the purchaser.
(B) Notify the purchaser of the department’s inability to ascertain the purchaser’s eligibility to possess, receive, own, or purchase a firearm and explain the process by which the purchaser may obtain a copy of the criminal or mental health record the department has on file for the purchaser. Upon receipt of that criminal or mental health record, the purchaser may report any inaccuracies or incompleteness to the department on an approved form.

"may then immediately transfer the firearm to the purchaser"

 

[gorgothmog]

Sorry to be a broken record. Everyone should just get a COE and FFL03. It's a little painful the first time, but to renew it's nothing. If you get denied then you can figure out what you need to do. Funny thing, the COE is actually the only functional thing in all of California firearm law that makes any sense, or has logical workflows.

 

[foothillman]

I have been hit with the UNDETERMINED.
It is CADOJ not getting its act together or they are doing what they can to keep lawful gun owners from buying firearms.

My story.....
7/3/2016 Purchased 2 shotguns.....Approved
8/13/2016 Purchased 1 handgun and 1 rifle....DELAY...UNDETERMINED
Was purchased at Sportsmans Warehouse and they do not deliver on UNDETERMINED.
I never asked since I never had this happen.
Out of town so thankfully Sportsman Warehouse held my firearms until I could come in, get my $$ back or DROS again.
Was a great sale and never had this happen before so DROS again.
9/18/2016 DROS same handgun and rifle....APPROVED on both.
Was not my last purchase.

WHY did this happen????
CADOJ will not inform me on how they determined or not determined.

Will never buy from FFL that will not release on UNDETERMINED.
If a FFL hit me with a restocking fee because they would not release on UNDETERMINED I would loose my $!#&

 

[echo1]

Sorry to be a broken record. Everyone should just get a COE and FFL03. It's a little painful the first time, but to renew it's nothing. If you get denied then you can figure out what you need to do. Funny thing, the COE is actually the only functional thing in all of California firearm law that makes any sense, or has logical workflows.

03 & COE is C&R territory and doesn't do squat for new firearms purchases.
In my situation, since I know I'm susceptible to a delay & possible undetermined, I won't risk the DROS fee if the LGS has an unacceptable policy (to me), I'll just go elsewhere or miss out on a gun I'd otherwise buy. I'm a poor customer for an FFL, usually I'm just doing a transfer of some sort vs buying a weapon or actually spending money in the shop.
With regards to a hesitant FFL releasing on an undetermined, an FFL is more likely to get dinged on improper/inaccurate paperwork ($2500 per error) versus an undetermined individual being prohibited. The DOJ/ATF can look at records as far back as they want (I think).
PS, good job foothillman on citation quotes PAX

 

[Deleted member 16735]

03 & COE is C&R territory and doesn't do squat for new firearms purchases.
In my situation, since I know I'm susceptible to a delay & possible undetermined, I won't risk the DROS fee if the LGS has an unacceptable policy (to me), I'll just go elsewhere or miss out on a gun I'd otherwise buy. I'm a poor customer for an FFL, usually I'm just doing a transfer of some sort vs buying a weapon or actually spending money in the shop.
With regards to a hesitant FFL releasing on an undetermined, an FFL is more likely to get dinged on improper/inaccurate paperwork ($2500 per error) versus an undetermined individual being prohibited. The DOJ/ATF can look at records as far back as they want (I think).
PS, good job foothillman on citation quotes PAX

A COE is essentially a TSA pre check for firearms and has nothing to do with an FFL03 except that getting an FFL03 is the easiest way to get the COE. COE is essentially a background check that lasts a year.

 

[echo1]

A COE is essentially a TSA pre check for firearms and has nothing to do with an FFL03 except that getting an FFL03 is the easiest way to get the COE. COE is essentially a background check that lasts a year.

In Kali you can't buy C&R direct without a COE.
So, a current COE negates the background check on 4473 processing by being pre-approved? You apply for a purchase and with the COE it's instantly approved. Does the 01 FFL still get the DROS fee? PAX