Question Ruger American 7.62 x 39: is expensive ammo worth it?

[echo1]

i mean basically you need bigger glass, you just can have just have the bigger glass be in addition to smaller glass. But why?

Depends on your usage, bench, field, stalking or varmint from a stand. Dirt squirrels, yotes, deer or elk? X39 is only going to reach out so far. Bigger isn't better, clearer is better. PAX

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Depends on your usage, bench, field, stalking or varmint from a stand. Dirt squirrels, yotes, deer or elk? X39 is only going to reach out so far. Bigger isn't better, clearer is better. PAX

sure but for instance I have a 15x on my hunting rifle that weighs 17 oz, cost less than 400 bucks and is super clear. There's no reason to go less than that. There's diminishing returns after 20x but even if just hunting it's nice to be able to see. There's basically no downside.

 

[echo1]

What if ghost rings are better for the application or laminarity? A blanket statement like "x is bestest" is a lose. Go what works for you. On my Savage 99F in .308, the period correct TASCO 2X7X32 Omnivision is the bees knees but other scoped rifles of mine, .22-250, .270, .41 & .30-30 levers and a bolt .308 have from 6X to X50 with a few SKSs with Williams, Mojo and Techsites. My SAR6 PSG1 clone has fixed 4X50. It's a one hole wonder. Might as well go for the big mag too. PAX

 

[Deleted member 16735]

What if ghost rings are better for the application or laminarity? A blanket statement like "x is bestest" is a lose. Go what works for you. On my Savage 99F in .308, the period correct TASCO 2X7X32 Omnivision is the bees knees but other scoped rifles of mine, .22-250, .270, .41 & .30-30 levers and a bolt .308 have from 6X to X50 with a few SKSs with Williams, Mojo and Techsites. My SAR6 PSG1 clone has fixed 4X50. It's a one hole wonder. Might as well go for the big mag too. PAX

a 15-20x scope is the best for being able to see your target both for aiming and also to see the results. It's a practical suggestion for someone who is just starting out, I don't know what a bunch of antique scopes have to do with this conversation. It's not that complicated

 

[H. Bowman]

if you want it to be accurate it absolutely make a difference. If you just want to shoot cans at 20 yards then no. Milsurp ammo is extremely inaccurate. If you want mag dump ammo it's fine (although you are on a bolt platform I see), if you want cheaper ammo you should look into reloading, the cheapest factory I would shoot is probably pmc bronze, that stuff is actually decent and the brass is good for reloading.

You have a lot of interesting commentary.
You're talking about only being able to shoot cans at 20 yards with a scoped rifle, and saying that 15 to 20 power scopes are the minimum?

I am curious what is your history and background in this realm? It seems limited.

OP, the Ruger American is a perfectly acceptable rifle for a whole lot of stuff. It'll shoot way better than some on this thread are telling you, even with cheap steal case ammo. 7 and 10" groups at a hundred yards is a shooter problem, not a steel case ammo problem.

If I were you, I'd order a box or two of brass case x39, clean the rifle really well, bench the gun and shoot a couple of groups. It'll probably be better than the cheap stuff, but how much better do you need it to be? Are you shooting 10" steel at a hundred or 2" steel at a hundred? Or 10" steel at 500? Or... who knows. But that rifle is perfectly capable of having a whole lot of fun with it, with cheap steel case ammo.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

You have a lot of interesting commentary.
You're talking about only being able to shoot cans at 20 yards with a scoped rifle, and saying that 15 to 20 power scopes are the minimum?

I am curious what is your history and background in this realm? It seems limited.

OP, the Ruger American is a perfectly acceptable rifle for a whole lot of stuff. It'll shoot way better than some on this thread are telling you, even with cheap steal case ammo. 7 and 10" groups at a hundred yards is a shooter problem, not a steel case ammo problem.

If I were you, I'd order a box or two of brass case x39, clean the rifle really well, bench the gun and shoot a couple of groups. It'll probably be better than the cheap stuff, but how much better do you need it to be? Are you shooting 10" steel at a hundred or 2" steel at a hundred? Or 10" steel at 500? Or... who knows. But that rifle is perfectly capable of having a whole lot of fun with it, with cheap steel case ammo.

Yeah you just misunderstood what I said, kinda odd that you would try to talk . Steel case is no better than 5 MOA ammo on the best day with the best barrel, I've shot thousands of rounds of it in 556 and I'm actually pretty happy it's gone now I hope that never comes back. I certainly question your own experience becuase even brass milsurp ammo like M193 is 5 MOA ammo. Now I handload 22 ARC, 223, 6 GT, 6.5 creedmoor and shoot quite a bit competitively. Putting you on the ignore list now

 

[echo1]

... I don't know what a bunch of antique scopes have to do with this conversation. It's not that complicated

Put meat in the freezer and holes in the X. PAX

 

[H. Bowman]

Yeah you just misunderstood what I said, kinda odd that you would try to talk . Steel case is no better than 5 MOA ammo on the best day with the best barrel, I've shot thousands of rounds of it in 556 and I'm actually pretty happy it's gone now I hope that never comes back. I certainly question your own experience becuase even brass milsurp ammo like M193 is 5 MOA ammo. Now I handload 22 ARC, 223, 6 GT, 6.5 creedmoor and shoot quite a bit competitively. Putting you on the ignore list now

Got it. Shooter skill is the problem, thank you for clarifying.

 

[couragewolf]

A reminder to everyone white feather did almost everything with a 10x, but he had a faithful spotter Jim land at all times.

 

[mblat1968]

Yeah you just misunderstood what I said, kinda odd that you would try to talk . Steel case is no better than 5 MOA ammo on the best day with the best barrel, I've shot thousands of rounds of it in 556 and I'm actually pretty happy it's gone now I hope that never comes back. I certainly question your own experience becuase even brass milsurp ammo like M193 is 5 MOA ammo. Now I handload 22 ARC, 223, 6 GT, 6.5 creedmoor and shoot quite a bit competitively. Putting you on the ignore list now

You saying that those rounds are technically 5 moa or that it is not possible regularly get better groups with it?

If later it contradict my experience. I regularly get 3 moa groups out of Ruger American and Wolf ammo. And like I said I am not even such a good shot. So I assume in a hands of good shot it would be better.

 

[couragewolf]

My personal preference is to build a ladder up on every single rifle I own and eliminate ammo variance entirely from the equation.

Over time you can hen peck at things like the trigger, scope cant, rifle bedding, barrel float, etc, but ammo is the most immediate foothill you can climb.

Buy some fancy overpriced ammo and see what the rifle in a vice or on sandbags with the least windy day imaginable can do. Congrats you've got a benchmark.

Better yet shoot 10 ladders all with .5 grain increments after seating the OAL to shouldering as perfectly as it can maybe even go to the trouble of measuring to OGIVE and setting your seating up for that degree of tolerance.

Then see where your harmonics are and how close you can get to the envelope of what it's possible for your exact rifle to do. Don't expect that not to change when you start messing around with things like floating the barrel or bedding the rifle though.

At the end of the day the shooter is the biggest variable you have the most influence over, and the ammo is probably second. Buy some fancy ammo and take a yoga class and see what comes of it.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

You saying that those rounds are technically 5 moa or that it is not possible regularly get better groups with it?

If later it contradict my experience. I regularly get 3 moa groups out of Ruger American and Wolf ammo. And like I said I am not even such a good shot. So I assume in a hands of good shot it would be better.

We are probably talking about the same groups but I'm just talking about a larger group quantity. The dispersion cone of any firearm isn't really represented until you hit about 30 rounds. If you keep shooting you will find that the 3 moa groups are actually 5-6 moa when the dispersion cone is fully represented. All that said, 3 moa is pretty bad. I get that with a 14.5 inch gas gun with 55 grain handloads with a 3x magnified red dot, and I'm talking about 10 round groups at 200 yards. But "bad" is in the eye of the beholder, if 10 inches at 300 yards is good enough for you then that's great and enjoy the cheap ammo. If you want better than that though the ammo quality does matter. with handloads I spend about 25 cents a round for 556 55 grain or like 35 cents for a 75 grain hpbt, that's probably cheaper than the wolf 7.62 stuff, nothing is cheap anymore even wolf.

 

[couragewolf]

We are probably talking about the same groups but I'm just talking about a larger group quantity. The dispersion cone of any firearm isn't really represented until you hit about 30 rounds. If you keep shooting you will find that the 3 moa groups are actually 5-6 moa when the dispersion cone is fully represented. All that said, 3 moa is pretty bad. I get that with a 14.5 inch gas gun with 55 grain handloads with a 3x magnified red dot, and I'm talking about 10 round groups at 200 yards. But "bad" is in the eye of the beholder, if 10 inches at 300 yards is good enough for you then that's great and enjoy the cheap ammo. If you want better than that though the ammo quality does matter. with handloads I spend about 25 cents a round for 556 55 grain or like 35 cents for a 75 grain hpbt, that's probably cheaper than the wolf 7.62 stuff, nothing is cheap anymore even wolf.

3 MOA is ROMAK with dirt cheap surplus ammo and iron sights territory. No AR should be tolerating this level of consistency, let alone a bolt action.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

3 MOA is ROMAK with dirt cheap surplus ammo and iron sights territory. No AR should be tolerating this level of consistency, let alone a bolt action.

yeah agreed, the group size thing is interesting though it really matters how many shots you are taking when talking about mechanical accuracy and comparing it to others online. Check out this guy Preston Moore who has been doing an AR barrel test series. This one is a Geissele cut rifled barrel, so far beyond the accuracy of chrome lined duty barrels and even with match ammo it's 2-3 MOA with 30 round groups. He always also throws in m193 and it's comically bad, like even 3-400 dollar barrels it's 5-6 moa. Wolf ammo isn't even as good as m193. But anyway

 

[couragewolf]

yeah agreed, the group size thing is interesting though it really matters how many shots you are taking when talking about mechanical accuracy and comparing it to others online. Check out this guy Preston Moore who has been doing an AR barrel test series. This one is a Geissele cut rifled barrel, so far beyond the accuracy of chrome lined duty barrels and even with match ammo it's 2-3 MOA with 30 round groups. He always also throws in m193 and it's comically bad, like even 3-400 dollar barrels it's 5-6 moa. Wolf ammo isn't even as good as m193. But anyway

This is a layer beneath the average shooters bench experience for sure. I've talked to Preston a few times this is a no bull take.

On the other hand I have to seriously question with the same length cut rifled barrel torqued onto a GAP what he'd be seeing. Not to question his capability but to challenge the gas gun vs bolt dynamic as it relates to a 30 rd group.

 

[couragewolf]

yeah agreed, the group size thing is interesting though it really matters how many shots you are taking when talking about mechanical accuracy and comparing it to others online. Check out this guy Preston Moore who has been doing an AR barrel test series. This one is a Geissele cut rifled barrel, so far beyond the accuracy of chrome lined duty barrels and even with match ammo it's 2-3 MOA with 30 round groups. He always also throws in m193 and it's comically bad, like even 3-400 dollar barrels it's 5-6 moa. Wolf ammo isn't even as good as m193. But anyway

That rifle stability score, also this is def sub 3 moa from what I saw. This is serious rifle calibration.

Sure makes me feel better about how my 18" FN DMR 3 seems to perform although I wish I'd gone 10x instead of 6x

 

[Deleted member 16735]

That rifle stability score, also this is def sub 3 moa from what I saw. This is serious rifle calibration.

Sure makes me feel better about how my 18" FN DMR 3 seems to perform although I wish I'd gone 10x instead of 6x

Yeah one group was just under 2 moa, the other was just under 3 both with "match grade" ammo but of course thats just factory 223 with probably a double base powder not a hand load with target.

 

[couragewolf]

Yeah one group was just under 2 moa, the other was just under 3 both with "match grade" ammo but of course thats just factory 223 with probably a double base powder not a hand load with target.

Guessing he'd get sub MOA with handloads but you're never gonna kiss the lands consistently on a gas gun.

My 6.5 CM SP10 seems to be sub MOA at 100 Yards with 10 rd groups but I've never tried 30 maybe next time I find time to go to the range.

You have to ask yourself in a gas op DI rifle like this how much heat is causing dissipation with something like a 30 rd group. Would you be getting that dissipation if each shot had 10m between it?

 

[Jimi Jah]

Ruger American rifle is pretty cheap. The Mini 30 is not. Does the 30 outshoot the Amercan?

My AR47 does pretty good.

 

[echo1]

Ruger American rifle is pretty cheap. The Mini 30 is not. Does the 30 outshoot the Amercan?

My AR47 does pretty good.

I couldn't give a side-by-side comparison, but I would think not. The RAR tightens up a scootch, with Yugo M67, compared to my best grouping SKS Paratrooper. It's doable but not precision. PAX