Shooting is a martial art!

[john_marsten_1873]

That's it! You won't change my mind but feel free to debate and share why or not.

 

[Brandon Breeze]

Absolutely, here's me at the last match:

 

[lactoast]

I disagree with you emotionally but I'm having difficulty finding a logical reason to refute you

So yes, I suppose it is a martial art

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Absolutely, here's me at the last match:

Damn! Was that a level 100 match? What class are you now?

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Would it be fair to include a modern missile weapon (a gun) as part of any martial (art) combat?

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Would it be fair to include a modern missile weapon (a gun) as part of any martial (art) combat?

No. "Shooting" or "Gunfighting" is the martial art. Guns are required.

Kenjutsu is the martial art. A sword (Katana, Bokken) is required.

 

[rodralig]

Well...

 

[Hindsight]

Well...


View attachment 254152

there's some low hanging fruit ripe for the picking there in the form of a joke, but I shall refrain.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Well...


View attachment 254152

Matchlock, sure it makes more sense. But a 9mm automatic?

 

[rodralig]

Matchlock, sure it makes more sense. But a 9mm automatic?

Why should the weapon matter? If the 1A isn’t limited to the printing press and the 2A isn’t limited to muskets, why would a Shooting martial art be limited to old weapons?

 

[RustVendor]

Debates like this are more about the limits of language than an actual practical distinction. Just please don't make a colored belt system popular for USPSA lol

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Why should the weapon matter? If the 1A isn’t limited to the printing press and the 2A isn’t limited to muskets, why would a Shooting martial art be limited to old weapons?

Martial combat (art or not) is generally melee combat at the very least, which can obviously include handheld weapons of combat. Where do we draw the line as it pertains to missile weapons? 9mm? .45? Rifle? Missile? Drone? Nuke?

Martial combat can involve a weapon but it should be melee (handheld) combat at the very least. A gun (especially a modern semi-automatic) seems to defy any reasonable meaning of the word "martial".

This is why the distinction is often made that guns are the great equalizer for women because (most) women are no match for men in *martial* combat.

 

[rodralig]

Debates like this are more about the limits of language than an actual practical distinction. Just please don't make a colored belt system popular for USPSA lol

Ask and you shall receive...

D - Yellow
C - Green
B - Brown
A - Shodan
M - Sandan
GM - Godan

 

[rodralig]

Martial combat (art or not) is generally melee combat at the very least, which can obviously include handheld weapons of combat. Where do we draw the line as it pertains to missile weapons? 9mm? .45? Rifle? Missile? Drone? Nuke?

Just working with the OP

Martial combat can involve a weapon but it should be melee (handheld) combat at the very least. A gun seems to defy any reasonable meaning of the word "martial".

This is why the distinction is often made that guns are the great equalizer for women because they're no match for men in *martial* combat.

Hhhmmm... Why restrict “martial art” to melee? “Martial” means warfare, not hand-to-hand combat. Archery and other ranged weapons have been part of martial traditions for centuries.

 

[RustVendor]

Ask and you shall receive...

D - Yellow
C - Green
B - Brown
A - Shodan
M - Sandan
GM - Godan

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Just working with the OP

View attachment 254192




Hhhmmm... Why restrict “martial art” to melee? “Martial” means warfare, not hand-to-hand combat. Archery and other ranged weapons have been part of martial traditions for centuries.

I would make a clear distinction between archery and a semi-auto handgun. Would you include an AR-15 in "martial" combat? How about a drone or tactical nuke? Where do you draw the line and why?

As I interpret the word "martial", it's primarily hand-to-hand combat, where a bow (legacy weapon) makes more sense than a modern semi-auto pistol.

This is why martial arts (as-used in the lexicon) is understood to be hand-to-hand combat without weapons, though handheld weapons and some non-machine missile weapons (nunchaku, shuriken) are included in martial arts, historically. When we watch martial arts contests, we don't expect to see weapons so the phrase has a commonly-understood meaning.

A bow is drawn with human muscle power and requires strength and skill. A shuriken is thrown with the hands and the skill required is evident. A gun simply requires aiming and pulling a trigger, nearly effortless as close-range.

I think it's fair to make a distinction between modern weapons and pre-modern/medieval weapons.

 

[rodralig]

I would make a clear distinction between archery and a semi-auto handgun. Would you include an AR-15 in "martial" combat? How about a drone or tactical nuke? Where do you draw the line and why?

As I interpret the word "martial", it's hand-to-hand combat, where a bow (legacy weapon) makes more sense than a modern semi-auto pistol.

That is YOUR interpretation...

My interpretation is broader - “martial” means relating to war or military skills, not specifically hand-to-hand combat. Even in 武道 (budō), the 武 (bu) means martial/war. So I don’t see why a bow qualifies but a modern pistol somehow doesn’t. The tool changed; the underlying martial skill didn’t.


Just like @RustVendor said - a play on words...
Enjoy!

 

[Wolkenflieger]

That is YOUR interpretation...

My interpretation is broader - “martial” means relating to war or military skills, not specifically hand-to-hand combat. Even in 武道 (budō), the 武 (bu) means martial/war. So I don’t see why a bow qualifies but a modern pistol somehow doesn’t. The tool changed; the underlying martial skill didn’t.


Just like @RustVendor said - a play on words...
Enjoy!

Absolutely, so a nuke is a martial art? How about a bioweapon? These are weapons of war, after all. Where do you draw the line? It's possible to make a distinction so that the slippery slope issue is excluded.

In my view, there has to be a dividing line somewhere so the phrase "martial art" doesn't lose its meaning. I would also say that a modern gun is more science than "Art". A category which excludes nothing is hardly a category.

 

[rodralig]

Absolutely, so a nuke is a martial art? How about a bioweapon? These are weapons of war, after all. Where do you draw the line? It's possible to make a distinction so that the slippery slope issue is excluded.

In my view, and yes we're debating words and phrases here along with their common-use and our own interpretation, there has to be a dividing line somewhere so the phrase "martial art" doesn't lose its meaning. I would also say that a modern gun is more science than "Art". There's an art to archery. It's practically in the name.

MY/personal interpretation? Martial art = trainable, individual combat discipline; not simply “anything used in war.”

• Japan: 弓道 (Kyūdō) - archery
• Japan: 砲術 (Hōjutsu) - traditional firearms/gunnery
• Japan: 手裏剣術 (Shurikenjutsu) - throwing weapons
• China: 暗器 (Ànqì) - training with concealed/projectile weapons such as darts and throwing weapons
• Korea: 석전 (Seokjeon) - historically used as martial training involving thrown stones and slings

Unless someone invents 核道 (Nuke-dō) - “the Way of the Nuclear Weapon”
Or WMD-dō and starts issuing black belts in strategic deterrence.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

MY/personal interpretation? Martial art = trainable, individual combat discipline; not simply “anything used in war.”

• Japan: 弓道 (Kyūdō) - archery
• Japan: 砲術 (Hōjutsu) - traditional firearms/gunnery
• Japan: 手裏剣術 (Shurikenjutsu) - throwing weapons
• China: 暗器 (Ànqì) - training with concealed/projectile weapons such as darts and throwing weapons
• Korea: 석전 (Seokjeon) - historically used as martial training involving thrown stones and slings

Unless someone invents 核道 (Nuke-dō) - “the Way of the Nuclear Weapon”
Or WMD-dō and starts issuing black belts in strategic deterrence.

In your list, you name "traditional" gunnery. Is a Glock 19 traditional gunnery? I would absolutely include traditional gunnery, but perhaps the dividing line would be between traditional and modern guns. Otherwise, how would one exclude modern rifles? These are individual combat tools and clearly trainable.

Even C&R guns are a specified age, with different rules for purchases by COE/FFL03 holders.

I come from a game-dev background so I'm used to debating topics like this with respect to game-design. We've debated far more strenuously over far more trivial areas of disagreement, lol.