Suggestions on my first two firearms to get?

[jayson_b24]

Easier? Absolutely!

But I’m more so talking about building/training a stronger foundation - that will be transferable to using a dot - especially if you’re new (or haven’t shot in a long time).

Iron sights have less margin for error and require you to train with more precision.

Dots give you much bigger margin of error - the dot anywhere in the window - so you can get away with a lot, even developing bad habits.

I started using dots too early. I was able to get away with poor grip and not really paying attention to how my sights behaved. Then when I got my second (and 3rd pistol) with different dots, I was wondering why I was struggling to find the dot on presentation and group consistently. So I went back to irons.

I have to grip better (and more consistently) with my support hand and pay more attention to sight return. I really had to develop a “feel” where I know while presenting if I changed angles or bad grip and fixing it before my sights are on target.That work has greatly improved my performance with dots as well and when shooting other platforms that I’m not familiar with.

I also like to at least consider the worst case scenario - in defensive purposes - were you to have to pick up a pistol in its most basic form or something you’re not familiar with. Maybe you have to perform with irons and manipulating a manual safety.

It forces more work up front for sure, but it’s invaluable in the long run. Also, when folks start with dots it’s really difficult for them to learn irons so they won’t train it.

A lot of good food for thought here!

 

[mblat1968]

Pistol caliber carbine
Handgun that takes the same mags as the carbine

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Pistol caliber carbine
Handgun that takes the same mags as the carbine

This is a pretty good plan!

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Easier? Absolutely!

But I’m more so talking about building/training a stronger foundation - that will be transferable to using a dot - especially if you’re new (or haven’t shot in a long time).

Iron sights have less margin for error and require you to train with more precision.

Dots give you much bigger margin of error - the dot anywhere in the window - so you can get away with a lot, even developing bad habits (or not actually addressing them).

I started using dots too early. I was able to get away with poor grip and not really paying attention to how my sights behaved. Then when I got my second (and 3rd pistol) with different dots, I was wondering why I was struggling to find the dot on presentation and group consistently. So I went back to irons.

I have to grip better (and more consistently) with my support hand and pay more attention to sight return. I really had to develop a “feel” where I know while presenting if I changed angles or bad grip and fixing it before my sights are on target.That work has greatly improved my performance with dots as well and when shooting other platforms that I’m not familiar with.

I also like to at least consider the worst case scenario - in defensive purposes - were you to have to pick up a pistol in its most basic form or something you’re not familiar with. Maybe you have to perform with irons and manipulating a manual safety.

It forces more work up front for sure, but it’s invaluable in the long run. Also, when folks start with dots it’s really difficult for them to learn irons so they won’t train it.

Irons don't teach you anything you couldn't have learned with the dot, you just paid more attention when you went back to irons but you can do the same thing with a dot. You simply weren't pushing yourself with the dot enough. Sport specific training is always going to be best, if you want to learn to index with a dot, learn to index with a dot. I would even say it can be detrimental to learn irons first because with a dot you need target focus whereas most people will tell you to use front sight focus with irons. So irons will teach you a really bad habit that it something you will be dealing with as long as you are shooting: staring at the dot instead of the target. Staying target focused is so important to fast accurate shooting. You can shoot target focused with irons but you have two blurry things and an in focus target vs one target in focus and one dot in focus. Like I said I have ZERO guns with even back up irons and I have no use for irons I want them out of the way so I can stay target focused. You couldn't pay me to shoot irons.

 

[OmOpLaTa]

My fat fingers will absolutely not cooperate with a 26; what are your thoughts on the 19?

A 19 is ok vs a 26 because it has a light rail. But even a 19 barrel and sight radius is too short for me personally. I opt for a glock 17 or 34, because the sight radius is longer and the longer barrel length decreases muzzle rise.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Irons don't teach you anything you couldn't have learned with the dot, you just paid more attention when you went back to irons but you can do the same thing with a dot.

I paid more attention because irons forced me to pay more attention. Particularly to how I was gripping and whether I changed the angles or added unnecessary input while indexing manipulating the trigger. It can absolutely be trained with optics but as I said, requires more precision with irons as there’s less room for error. I failed faster and learned faster!

Sport specific training is always going to be best, if you want to learn to index with a dot, learn to index with a dot

I wanted to learn faster how to index more consistently and diagnose presentation issues with a pistol, regardless of the sighting platform.

I would even say it can be detrimental to learn irons first because with a dot you need target focus whereas most people will tell you to use front sight focus with irons.

I also thought this would be an issue but it wasn’t/isn’t. I hadn’t shot with a dot for months - still maybe a week of total experience - and was able to go into a pistol mounted optic class and do very well. There had been a few other shooters there who struggled with staying target focused among other things and started with optics. Even shooting occluded (which is an easy fix for being dot focused) was very natural for me along with using the top edge of the optic and pistol frame for aiming.

My biggest issue when going back to the dot is over-confirming - especially when it should be a flash sight picture. I’m just surprised that I’m on target so quickly and take longer than needed to break the trigger. But that’s only when I start shooting and I’m back on track pretty quickly.

Like I said I have ZERO guns with even back up irons and I have no use for irons I want them out of the way so I can stay target focused. You couldn't pay me to shoot irons.

In the end, I’m not making an argument whether dots or irons are “better” (optics are all but proven to be faster and easier). I argue with people on both sides of that all the time because it can really depend on the person working the tool and what you’re training for.

I’m more so talking about training more effectively and how I was able to learn and progress faster as well as diagnose issues faster. Even JJ Raccaza recently shot a match using irons because he said his presentation was getting lazy or something to that effect.

And my goals are to achieve and maintain near elite, raw and applied marksmanship skills, multi-platform proficiency - where I can pick up almost any pistol (or otherwise) in its most basic or advanced state and quickly perform. All this along with what I’ll call “proficiency” in defensive tactics and competition.

This is why I recommend new shooters start and build a foundation with iron sights that will be transferable and even improve shooting with optics.

 

[JC2020]

You have many good suggestions, OP, so I will just write my own, plus my experience when I was a new shooter.

I recommend you get the biggest handgun you can grip, because a bigger and heavier gun will be easier to shoot. I recommend 9mm caliber and a striker fired semi-automatic, because then you have the most abundant and common self defense/range/sport shooting caliber and the most common type of modern handgun.

My favorites on the roster are the H&K VP9A1F and K. They are more expensive and often out of stock, but they are excellent, require minimal maintenance, and are particularly well-built.

You should stick to the handgun roster in California for your first purchase, because it’s easier. You can choose the M&P 2.0 or Shield 2.0, both well liked by many.

The Echelon is also highly regarded, as is the PDP series. Any of these are great.

If you must go smaller, the p365 series, particularly the x-Macro, is pretty good.

I don’t recommend the Sig p320 series of guns. Though controversial, they may have a history of uncommanded discharges (the gun shoots without a trigger pull). Whether this is true or not, many gun ranges have banned them, and you cannot practice as a result.

When I first started, I wanted a smaller, reliable gun. I chose the Glock 19, which isn’t easy to get in California as of this year. It’s fantastic, and I love the platform, but I learned I much prefer bigger grips despite having medium sized hands. So don’t think that you absolutely cannot shoot a full sized handgun with smaller hands, even if it is quite intimidating at first.

A 9mm semiautomatic striker fired handgun from Glock, Heckler&Koch, Walther, Springfield, Smith&Wesson, and Sig (except their p320s) will be reliable, accurate, and likely last as long as you care to shoot it. I’m probably forgetting other major manufacturers, but I trust these the most (in no particular order).

Also, know that we are all biased. Depending on when we started (often this has to do with our age), we have certain biases. Whether or not we compete, and our comfort levels with various platforms, all color our recommendations. I learned to shoot on irons, but I absolutely put a red dot optic on every firearm I own. Aiming with irons is very different in focus (on the front sight) compared to red dots (on target). Depending on age, there are other factors at play. I may soon have trouble focusing on my front sight as my eyes age. Red dots are no problem for me. I agree with the posters who have noted that they do not have trouble with proper presentation, even when their red dot is not working. Iron sights are great as backup. But for me, they have been relegated to backup only, much like irons are back ups for me on rifles.

As for your second firearm, I recommend the Ruger 10/22, which has virtually no recoil shooting .22LR and can help you learn and gain confidence in shooting.

 

[thebossjocelyn]

The cheapest way to find out what you like is if you have buddies with guns who can let you shoot, offer em some food or to pay the range fees if you don't have your own ammo supply yet and get a feel for what is out there, that't how I got to try a plethora of potential first handguns as our group had a PDP, P365, Hellcat and Glock 19 and I took some mental notes about what was good.

The other, slightly more expensive option, is to take a day to go to the range with a buddy to try out different guns. I was dead set on an Echelon at first since everyone recommends it nowadays and while it wasn't bad, I just didn't feel that connection to it. I tried the MP 2.0 on the suggestion from the guy at the rental counter and loved the way it felt and shot above everything else I had tried and that is what I ended up getting.

As for a fun plinker, we have a little 22 range at our spot so I eventually want to get a 10/22 or HK22/M&P 15-22 that I can just sit down and enjoy on the cheap and is still different enough from the 9mm for some variety. Besides that I think a nice pump shotty is my last want for now but I think its like motorcycles where the formula for the perfect amount is N+1, where N=how many guns you currently have.

Yeah I do have someone who has several handgun firearms to shoot which I haven’t yet.. but I’ll definitely give a try.
That’s where I’m at right now with the echelon, I’m pretty set on it but I would like to test shoot to see how I feel about it. I went ahead and purchased a Ruger 10/22 for fun and practice shooting with at the range.

 

[Spork]

Yeah I do have someone who has several handgun firearms to shoot which I haven’t yet.. but I’ll definitely give a try.
That’s where I’m at right now with the echelon, I’m pretty set on it but I would like to test shoot to see how I feel about it. I went ahead and purchased a Ruger 10/22 for fun and practice shooting with at the range.

That'll definitely be fun and cheap to shoot. Only word of warning regarding the echelon if you do get one is the gear up package is apparently not that great of a deal for us in California since the red dot sucks and you gotta pay the 11% Tax on all the extras. Plus you don't get tritium sights either.

 

[thebossjocelyn]

You have many good suggestions, OP, so I will just write my own, plus my experience when I was a new shooter.

I recommend you get the biggest handgun you can grip, because a bigger and heavier gun will be easier to shoot. I recommend 9mm caliber and a striker fired semi-automatic, because then you have the most abundant and common self defense/range/sport shooting caliber and the most common type of modern handgun.

My favorites on the roster are the H&K VP9A1F and K. They are more expensive and often out of stock, but they are excellent, require minimal maintenance, and are particularly well-built.

You should stick to the handgun roster in California for your first purchase, because it’s easier. You can choose the M&P 2.0 or Shield 2.0, both well liked by many.

The Echelon is also highly regarded, as is the PDP series. Any of these are great.

If you must go smaller, the p365 series, particularly the x-Macro, is pretty good.

I don’t recommend the Sig p320 series of guns. Though controversial, they may have a history of uncommanded discharges (the gun shoots without a trigger pull). Whether this is true or not, many gun ranges have banned them, and you cannot practice as a result.

When I first started, I wanted a smaller, reliable gun. I chose the Glock 19, which isn’t easy to get in California as of this year. It’s fantastic, and I love the platform, but I learned I much prefer bigger grips despite having medium sized hands. So don’t think that you absolutely cannot shoot a full sized handgun with smaller hands, even if it is quite intimidating at first.

A 9mm semiautomatic striker fired handgun from Glock, Heckler&Koch, Walther, Springfield, Smith&Wesson, and Sig (except their p320s) will be reliable, accurate, and likely last as long as you care to shoot it. I’m probably forgetting other major manufacturers, but I trust these the most (in no particular order).

Also, know that we are all biased. Depending on when we started (often this has to do with our age), we have certain biases. Whether or not we compete, and our comfort levels with various platforms, all color our recommendations. I learned to shoot on irons, but I absolutely put a red dot optic on every firearm I own. Aiming with irons is very different in focus (on the front sight) compared to red dots (on target). Depending on age, there are other factors at play. I may soon have trouble focusing on my front sight as my eyes age. Red dots are no problem for me. I agree with the posters who have noted that they do not have trouble with proper presentation, even when their red dot is not working. Iron sights are great as backup. But for me, they have been relegated to backup only, much like irons are back ups for me on rifles.

As for your second firearm, I recommend the Ruger 10/22, which has virtually no recoil shooting .22LR and can help you learn and gain confidence in shooting.

Thank you for taking the time to write all this. I’ve been slowly learning that it’s better and easier for me to get a larger firearm due to less recoil , which is something I definitely want. I’ll look into those recommendations. I’ve went ahead and purchased my Ruger 10/22 that im stoked to begin learning and be more confident to shoot.

 

[thebossjocelyn]

That'll definitely be fun and cheap to shoot. Only word of warning regarding the echelon if you do get one is the gear up package is apparently not that great of a deal for us in California since the red dot sucks and you gotta pay the 11% Tax on all the extras. Plus you don't get tritium sights either.

Yeah that 11% tax is just unbelievable.

 

[thebossjocelyn]

Iv

That'll definitely be fun and cheap to shoot. Only word of warning regarding the echelon if you do get one is the gear up package is apparently not that great of a deal for us in California since the red dot sucks and you gotta pay the 11% Tax on all the extras. Plus you don't get tritium sights either.

Ive seen it priced for $755 for the handgun, bag including four magazines. I think it’s pretty reasonable.. but im still looking around.

 

[JC2020]

Thank you for taking the time to write all this. I’ve been slowly learning that it’s better and easier for me to get a larger firearm due to less recoil , which is something I definitely want. I’ll look into those recommendations. I’ve went ahead and purchased my Ruger 10/22 that im stoked to begin learning and be more confident to shoot.

My pleasure. Just trying to pay it forward, because so many others have helped me. That 10/22 is so much fun! Congrats!

I forgot to mention that several models in the list, including all flavors of Echelon and p365, have many options for grips, so if you discover you don’t love it after shooting for some time, you can find a different grip.

Among my personal favorites, the VP9F and the PDP full size, the grip panels and back straps are removable, and you are provided with several different sizes and shapes. For example, I prefer a flatter backstrap, and switched out the VP9F medium backstrap for the small, which felt much better during longer sessions of shooting (300 rounds or more). This was not what I expected, because I usually size up.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

My biggest issue when going back to the dot is over-confirming - especially when it should be a flash sight picture. I’m just surprised that I’m on target so quickly and take longer than needed to break the trigger. But that’s only when I start shooting and I’m back on track pretty quickly.

this is exactly why I think it's detrimental to go back and forth from a dot to irons, your over-confirmation is a result of not being target focused which is a result of wasting time on irons. It literally set you back by your own account. If you want to shoot irons that's great shoot irons. But recommending beginners do it I just don't agree with, it instills bad habits if your ultimate goal is to shoot with a dot and it's a waste of time and money.

 

[weaverftw]

You have many good suggestions, OP, so I will just write my own, plus my experience when I was a new shooter.

I recommend you get the biggest handgun you can grip, because a bigger and heavier gun will be easier to shoot. I recommend 9mm caliber and a striker fired semi-automatic, because then you have the most abundant and common self defense/range/sport shooting caliber and the most common type of modern handgun.

My favorites on the roster are the H&K VP9A1F and K. They are more expensive and often out of stock, but they are excellent, require minimal maintenance, and are particularly well-built.

You should stick to the handgun roster in California for your first purchase, because it’s easier. You can choose the M&P 2.0 or Shield 2.0, both well liked by many.

The Echelon is also highly regarded, as is the PDP series. Any of these are great.

If you must go smaller, the p365 series, particularly the x-Macro, is pretty good.

I don’t recommend the Sig p320 series of guns. Though controversial, they may have a history of uncommanded discharges (the gun shoots without a trigger pull). Whether this is true or not, many gun ranges have banned them, and you cannot practice as a result.

When I first started, I wanted a smaller, reliable gun. I chose the Glock 19, which isn’t easy to get in California as of this year. It’s fantastic, and I love the platform, but I learned I much prefer bigger grips despite having medium sized hands. So don’t think that you absolutely cannot shoot a full sized handgun with smaller hands, even if it is quite intimidating at first.

A 9mm semiautomatic striker fired handgun from Glock, Heckler&Koch, Walther, Springfield, Smith&Wesson, and Sig (except their p320s) will be reliable, accurate, and likely last as long as you care to shoot it. I’m probably forgetting other major manufacturers, but I trust these the most (in no particular order).

Also, know that we are all biased. Depending on when we started (often this has to do with our age), we have certain biases. Whether or not we compete, and our comfort levels with various platforms, all color our recommendations. I learned to shoot on irons, but I absolutely put a red dot optic on every firearm I own. Aiming with irons is very different in focus (on the front sight) compared to red dots (on target). Depending on age, there are other factors at play. I may soon have trouble focusing on my front sight as my eyes age. Red dots are no problem for me. I agree with the posters who have noted that they do not have trouble with proper presentation, even when their red dot is not working. Iron sights are great as backup. But for me, they have been relegated to backup only, much like irons are back ups for me on rifles.

As for your second firearm, I recommend the Ruger 10/22, which has virtually no recoil shooting .22LR and can help you learn and gain confidence in shooting.

Listen to this guy. I also fell for the trap of thinking the G19 fit my small hands better than a G17 but have come to realize I shoot the bigger gun better. If you get the echelon (good choice) I would get the 4.5 full size and not the 4.0 compact

 

[vplaza96]

Listen to this guy. I also fell for the trap of thinking the G19 fit my small hands better than a G17 but have come to realize I shoot the bigger gun better. If you get the echelon (good choice) I would get the 4.5 full size and not the 4.0 compact

I suggest trying the full and compact echelons. I thought i shot the full size XD well, but I now feel that i shoot the 4.0C better. It really isn't a micro/sub compact, like my old XD9 Subcompact was. It's a really good size for my hands.

 

[sonofeugene]

Both of my 34’s are equipped identically with Trijicon night sights and Surefire lights.

 

[sonofeugene]

And if you get more than one HD gun, they are best if they are identical and identically equipped.

 

[RS1911]

Pistol Caliber Carbine & 1911 both in 9MM So you can practice both with cheaper ammo