Voting... Will We Be Able To?

[RustVendor]

In that note. This last election cycle for the primaries.. my wife and I did not receive our ballots by mail. The system attested that they had been delivered.

To be fair that could be USPS too, my car registration recently somehow got lost en route after they took a picture of it and notified me when it would be delivered. Had to pay to get it reissued.

 

[Fulcrum]

My post was satirical (mostly) but possibly much closer to the truth than we want to admit.

If you don’t think there’s any truth to my post, please explain how the opportunities I laid out are not possible.

Generally, it's on the person making an extraordinary claim to say why they think it's true. That would be you. It's not on the person saying the claim is not true to prove it is false. So it's not really on me to prove what you are saying is not true, but I will tell you why I think it is not true, if you agree to tell me why you think is true.

I think this is the process:

Register anyone with a pulse (or not..) to vote, such as drivers license and welfare applicants, regardless of immigration status. Mail out ballots to everyone and anyone possible, even if they can’t vote.

I don't think that's true, because the "motor voter" automatic registration when you apply for a drivers license or state ID is not for non-citizens. You need to pro-actively attest you are a citizen. So it is not registering people regardless of immigration status and is not mailing out ballots to everyone possible, even its they can't vote.

This creates a large pool of “available” ballots. A lot of people here illegally actually have some respect (fear) for the law, and don’t actually vote because it’s illegal, so there’s a lot of these ballots out there.

I don't think there is this vast pool of ballots sent out to people illegally for the reason I already stated, but if a ballot were sent out to someone who shouldn't get one, how is that ballot now "available"? Available to who? The ballot would be in the possession of the person who it was sent to, and that person would be in the position of deciding to either toss is out and ignore it, or cast the ballot and commit a felony.

Hold an election. Start counting votes. Use the early counts to see projected results. Dip into the available ballots as needed to produce the results desired by the party in power. It’s easy to make it look reasonably close, because you have a month to adjust your final product, aka the manufactured election “results”

I don't think that is true because I don't see a mechanism for "dipping into available ballots". These are the ballots mailed out to people who should not get them? What exactly do you do to make them into cast ballots that can be counted? Go out and collect them from the people who got them?

Can you tell me in better detail how you think this fraud works? And also, how does it work undetected when everyone seems to be out searching for this exact kind of fraud and never finding it?

 

[Fulcrum]

Me not getting ballots means the system works? Nice to know. And yes we did contact the county.

Yes. The fact that you were told they were sent to you means there is a check in the system to be sure you get them. And if you don't get them due to whatever reason, like things being lost in the mail, or something nefarious, like someone stole your ballot, then you have a way to correct it and still vote. What did you do? The easiest thing would be to go cast your ballot in person, which is always an option. Then if someone did try to cast your mail ballot fraudulently, it would not count. To me, that is a working system that has built-in failsafes.

 

[RustVendor]

Generally, it's on the person making an extraordinary claim to say why they think it's true. That would be you. It's not on the person saying the claim is not true to prove it is false. So it's not really on me to prove what you are saying is not true, but I will tell you why I think it is not true, if you agree to tell me why you think is true.



I don't think that's true, because the "motor voter" automatic registration when you apply for a drivers license or state ID is not for non-citizens. You need to pro-actively attest you are a citizen. So it is not registering people regardless of immigration status and is not mailing out ballots to everyone possible, even its they can't vote.



I don't think there is this vast pool of ballots sent out to people illegally for the reason I already stated, but if a ballot were sent out to someone who shouldn't get one, how is that ballot now "available"? Available to who? The ballot would be in the possession of the person who it was sent to, and that person would be in the position of deciding to either toss is out and ignore it, or cast the ballot and commit a felony.



I don't think that is true because I don't see a mechanism for "dipping into available ballots". These are the ballots mailed out to people who should not get them? What exactly do you do to make them into cast ballots that can be counted? Go out and collect them from the people who got them?

Can you tell me in better detail how you think this fraud works? And also, how does it work undetected when everyone seems to be out searching for this exact kind of fraud and never finding it?

The fraud works like this: Koch industries has funded groups like Americans for Prosperity for years which is worked very hard to create fake grassroots movements AKA astroturfing to sew distrust in everything from Climate Change to Immigration. The sad part is that these suckers keep falling for it and all it took was a facebook meme for millions of people to incorporate easily falsifiable propaganda into their worldview. The fake populist sentiment is always based on one concept regardless of the topic: Those people, who seem different than you, but are actually of the same economic class, want to take everything from you. It's always been a distraction of which the ultimate goal is to convince the poor and even middle class that billionaires need unfettered freedom to take as much as they want with no restrictions.

 

[NorCALSpeed]

Even the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, studied and concluded that voting fraud hardly occurs.

"Research published by the Brookings Institute in November found that cases of mail-in voting fraud account for merely 0.000043% of all ballots cast by mail, equivalent to roughly four out of every 10 million. ..To make its calculations, Brookings drew on a Heritage Foundation database of election fraud cases that “ended in a finding that the individual engaged in wrongdoing,” identifying cases in which people were charged with fraud related to mail-in voting. " source

However, there are other things happening to restrict voting such as canceling mail-in voting, or what TX did where they closed 92 polling places in a district that votes blue/purple.

I think we should make elections a national holiday, have lots of polls, just do it simply and fairly. This gamesmanship hurts everyone.

 

[grandpapeepap]

Even the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, studied and concluded that voting fraud hardly occurs.

"Research published by the Brookings Institute in November found that cases of mail-in voting fraud account for merely 0.000043% of all ballots cast by mail, equivalent to roughly four out of every 10 million. ..To make its calculations, Brookings drew on a Heritage Foundation database of election fraud cases that “ended in a finding that the individual engaged in wrongdoing,” identifying cases in which people were charged with fraud related to mail-in voting. " source

However, there are other things happening to restrict voting such as canceling mail-in voting, or what TX did where they closed 92 polling places in a district that votes blue/purple.

I think we should make elections a national holiday, have lots of polls, just do it simply and fairly. This gamesmanship hurts everyone.

feelings over facts for some people, they feel theres fraud on a massive scale, which is ironic when you seem them complain about other things

 

[Gravel]

Generally, it's on the person making an extraordinary claim to say why they think it's true. That would be you. It's not on the person saying the claim is not true to prove it is false. So it's not really on me to prove what you are saying is not true, but I will tell you why I think it is not true, if you agree to tell me why you think is true.

Again, satirical and somewhat conspiracy theorist. And I’d imagine you would likely reject any evidence I could find, so I’ll pass on that.

I don't think that's true, because the "motor voter" automatic registration when you apply for a drivers license or state ID is not for non-citizens. You need to pro-actively attest you are a citizen. So it is not registering people regardless of immigration status and is not mailing out ballots to everyone possible, even its they can't vote.

You made a great point, for me, with the phrase “pro-actively attest that you are a citizen”. It’s a clear admission that proof of citizenship or even identification is not needed to register to vote. All that’s required is to insist that I’m a legal citizen, with absolutely zero proof.

Also, welfare system workers are required to register anyone who applies. I’m sure an internet search will be inconclusive about this, but I have multiple family members and friends who were state employees and have told the same story.

I don't think there is this vast pool of ballots sent out to people illegally for the reason I already stated, but if a ballot were sent out to someone who shouldn't get one, how is that ballot now "available"? Available to who? The ballot would be in the possession of the person who it was sent to, and that person would be in the position of deciding to either toss is out and ignore it, or cast the ballot and commit a felony.

The ballots are “available” because they don’t get mailed out.

I don't think that is true because I don't see a mechanism for "dipping into available ballots". These are the ballots mailed out to people who should not get them? What exactly do you do to make them into cast ballots that can be counted? Go out and collect them from the people who got them?

I wouldn’t expect an organization perpetuating election fraud would advertise their services.. and I’d also expect that the employees wouldn’t be fully aware of exactly what they’re working on.

Can you tell me in better detail how you think this fraud works? And also, how does it work undetected when everyone seems to be out searching for this exact kind of fraud and never finding it?

I haven’t been inside of the system, so you’ll need to find details elsewhere. As I’ve said before, my thoughts are somewhat satirical and I’ll admit, incomplete. But ask yourself, why does California need a full month to do a task that nearly every third world country can do in less than 24 hours? A task that California used to do in less than 24 hours?

At the very least, they have created the time and resources needed to perpetuate election fraud. I don’t know how far it goes beyond that ability, but it’s a certainty that the ability exists.

 

[Gravel]

feelings over facts for some people, they feel theres fraud on a massive scale, which is ironic when you seem them complain about other things

No ID is required to register and to vote. The count takes a month. The count is not completed publicly.

Those three facts, all by themselves, creates the ability and appearance of impropriety/fraud.

If President Trump came out with a proposal for national elections to be run like California elections, people would be outraged. Rightfully. Yet Californians allow Gov Newsom to do this happily?

Situational morality = no morality.

 

[PeekAhBoo]

No ID is required to register and to vote. The count takes a month. The count is not completed publicly.

Those three facts, all by themselves, creates the ability and appearance of impropriety/fraud.

If President Trump came out with a proposal for national elections to be run like California elections, people would be outraged. Rightfully. Yet Californians allow Gov Newsom to do this happily?

Situational morality = no morality.

You need a driver's license and SSN to register to vote. Based on that information the citizenship is easily determined from the records. If you are a new citizen you must show up in person with the proof of citizenship.

Easily googleable, please do some basic research before spreading disinformation: https://registertovote.ca.gov/


Also, I think it is very dishonest to say "I don't know how it works, have no proof, this is somewhat a joke, but trust me there is fraud." The least you could do is lookup the facts...

 

[Fulcrum]

Again, satirical and somewhat conspiracy theorist. And I’d imagine you would likely reject any evidence I could find, so I’ll pass on that.

You made a great point, for me, with the phrase “pro-actively attest that you are a citizen”. It’s a clear admission that proof of citizenship or even identification is not needed to register to vote. All that’s required is to insist that I’m a legal citizen, with absolutely zero proof.

Also, welfare system workers are required to register anyone who applies. I’m sure an internet search will be inconclusive about this, but I have multiple family members and friends who were state employees and have told the same story.

The ballots are “available” because they don’t get mailed out.

I wouldn’t expect an organization perpetuating election fraud would advertise their services.. and I’d also expect that the employees wouldn’t be fully aware of exactly what they’re working on.

I haven’t been inside of the system, so you’ll need to find details elsewhere. As I’ve said before, my thoughts are somewhat satirical and I’ll admit, incomplete. But ask yourself, why does California need a full month to do a task that nearly every third world country can do in less than 24 hours? A task that California used to do in less than 24 hours?

At the very least, they have created the time and resources needed to perpetuate election fraud. I don’t know how far it goes beyond that ability, but it’s a certainty that the ability exists.

You are basically saying you don’t know how it works, but it’s fraud. Sorry if I don’t accept your lack of knowledge or facts as proof.

Everyone who knows a lot more about how these things work than you do, and are highly motivated to prove what you say is true, with millions or billions of dollars at their disposal to prove it, and political power at stake, have not been able to find evidence of your claims. They want what you say to be true but can’t prove it. If the Republican Party, the Trump DOJ, the Heritage Foundation, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and the genius Mr. Pillow can’t find any evidence of this stuff happening after 30 years of investigation, it’s not happening. It’s just something they tell you to make an excuse for losing elections. It’s probably counterproductive to winning. If you believe there’s no chance of winning due to fraud, then what’s your motivation to vote? They are self-sabotaging.

 

[Gravel]

You are basically saying you don’t know how it works, but it’s fraud. Sorry if I don’t accept your lack of knowledge or facts as proof.

Everyone who knows a lot more about how these things work than you do, and are highly motivated to prove what you say is true, with millions or billions of dollars at their disposal to prove it, and political power at stake, have not been able to find evidence of your claims. They want what you say to be true but can’t prove it. If the Republican Party, the Trump DOJ, the Heritage Foundation, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, and the genius Mr. Pillow can’t find any evidence of this stuff happening after 30 years of investigation, it’s not happening. It’s just something they tell you to make an excuse for losing elections. It’s probably counterproductive to winning. If you believe there’s no chance of winning due to fraud, then what’s your motivation to vote? They are self-sabotaging.

Nice straw man/appeal to authority.

You’re ignoring the facts presented and focusing solely on the portion of my comment that I stated I have no proof of, then claiming victory based on that? While you presented it well, it’s a very weak argument. AI?

It looks like you’re more concerned about winning than having an actual conversation, so I’ll leave with one last question:

Why does it take California a full month to count the votes? A month, for a task that’s been done in about 24 hours throughout world history? It creates the appearance of, and ability to, alter the count.

 

[Gravel]

Last, last question: why is California proposing and passing laws that block investigation and audits of the election process and other programs?

Wouldn’t an open and honest process welcome outside auditors to verify the integrity? Isn’t it in the taxpayers interest to have audits of our public services?

 

[Gravel]

This site is really strange.. there’s a group of .gov lovers here, they lap up anything found on a gov website or from politicians speeches as gospel truth, while ignoring facts and personal experiences shared that challenge their beliefs. Aggressive confirmation bias defense like I’ve never seen before..

Something strange about this place..

 

[Fulcrum]

Nice straw man/appeal to authority.

You’re ignoring the facts presented and focusing solely on the portion of my comment that I stated I have no proof of, then claiming victory based on that? While you presented it well, it’s a very weak argument. AI?

It looks like you’re more concerned about winning than having an actual conversation, so I’ll leave with one last question:

Why does it take California a full month to count the votes? A month, for a task that’s been done in about 24 hours throughout world history? It creates the appearance of, and ability to, alter the count.

Now that strawman theory and appeal to authority logical fallacies have been invoked, it’s clear this conversation has run its course! Have a great day!

I encourage everyone to get out and vote (except for Gravel. It’s all rigged, so you in particular shouldn’t bother, but everyone else should!) Regardless of your party affiliation or ideology, please participate in your representative democracy by informing yourself, voting, volunteering for a campaign that you support, or running for office yourself. And if you have doubts about the running of your elections, you can volunteer to work in an election center or observe the process. And protect your right to vote! This executive order directing to the Postal Service to screen your ballots and not deliver them unless on an approved list is an attack on your Constitutional right to vote. And even having the government screening your mail at all is also an attack on your First Amendment rights. These are not things to be given up lightly, and I don’t expect this order to stand. But if it does, make a plan for voting. Vote in person if you have to.

 

[RustVendor]

Now that strawman theory and appeal to authority logical fallacies have been invoked, it’s clear this conversation has run its course! Have a great day!

I encourage everyone to get out and vote (except for Gravel. It’s all rigged, so you in particular shouldn’t bother, but everyone else should!) Regardless of your party affiliation or ideology, please participate in your representative democracy by informing yourself, voting, volunteering for a campaign that you support, or running for office yourself. And if you have doubts about the running of your elections, you can volunteer to work in an election center or observe the process. And protect your right to vote! This executive order directing to the Postal Service to screen your ballots and not deliver them unless on an approved list is an attack on your Constitutional right to vote. And even having the government screening your mail at all is also an attack on your First Amendment rights. These are not things to be given up lightly, and I don’t expect this order to stand. But if it does, make a plan for voting. Vote in person if you have to.

the SC already failed to stop it on grounds of standing i.e. it hasn't harmed anyone yet. They ironically recognized that the action may indeed be illegal.

 

[Gravel]

Now that strawman theory and appeal to authority logical fallacies have been invoked, it’s clear this conversation has run its course! Have a great day!

I encourage everyone to get out and vote (except for Gravel. It’s all rigged, so you in particular shouldn’t bother, but everyone else should!) Regardless of your party affiliation or ideology, please participate in your representative democracy by informing yourself, voting, volunteering for a campaign that you support, or running for office yourself. And if you have doubts about the running of your elections, you can volunteer to work in an election center or observe the process. And protect your right to vote! This executive order directing to the Postal Service to screen your ballots and not deliver them unless on an approved list is an attack on your Constitutional right to vote. And even having the government screening your mail at all is also an attack on your First Amendment rights. These are not things to be given up lightly, and I don’t expect this order to stand. But if it does, make a plan for voting. Vote in person if you have to.

So ignore the question about 30 days to count votes, attack my credibility, attempt to ridicule me, and run. Got it, you’ve switched to ad hominem, with a side of personal attack. All because I noticed the type of argument you were making.

 

[Gravel]

In an honest government:

In person voting, same day counting, Election Day as a federal holiday, is by far the best answer.

I’ll probably withdraw from this discussion as well, I’ve stated my position and listened to the others.

 

[Fulcrum]

That being said there’s a non zero chance large scale voter fraud exists here in CA, and that’s too high a chance. You should take that seriously rather than dismiss it.

I do take fraud and tampering with elections seriously. I just don’t think it happens the way you describe.

In an earlier version of your post, you said something I agree with, and then you deleted it. Here it is:

But the arc of justice bends slowly in America. The Feds may work slow but they work for sure. The truth will always come to light regardless of what anyone thinks in the interim.

Let’s count on that. I agree that the truth eventually comes out. In this case, several decades and millions of dollars have been spent looking for this type of election fraud you are describing, and it has not been found. But if it exists, then I’m sure it will be found eventually. Have faith in that. I also don’t think conspiracies of the size you are talking about can hold together long term. Eventually someone makes a mistake, gets caught, and rats out the whole thing. Or they see some other gain to be had by exposing it. Or their conscience wears on them. You are talking about a scheme that would involve hundreds of people. At some point that’s getting out, if it exists.

 

[Fulcrum]

the SC already failed to stop it on grounds of standing i.e. it hasn't harmed anyone yet. They ironically recognized that the action may indeed be illegal.

I think that was just one of the injunctions, but I believe there is another that still is in effect, and the Supreme Court has not ruled on the merits yet. I don’t think the Postal Service thing will stand. But if it does, make your plan to vote. I will crawl through broken glass and burning gasoline to vote if this illegal order is allowed to stand. No one is taking my right to vote from me.

 

[Jimi Jah]

I first voted in 1970. I just turned 18 and Nixon had lowered the voting age to 18. I also worked at the polling place the first few elections. I was always the youngest poll worker.

Results were known by 11 pm, every time. We used to be able to have honest and fast results here.