What if the Roster disappeared over night?

[treelogger]

Please expound on why a magazine disconnect is “the right thing to do”…
Do you wish that those are some sort of legal requirement?

Why the right thing? They make the gun safer: fewer NDs. I know there are people who think the opposite, that they make the gun less useful (unable to fire a single cartridge without a magazine), but I don't think that use case happens enough in the real world to be worth the safety tradeoff. Same with the LCI tradeoff: it makes the gun more complex, can theoretically cause more malfunctions, but again, its safety impact is more important.

Do I want it to be a legal requirement, like it is now (with CA's roster)? Absolutely not. I would wish that gun people are intelligent enough to make good choices, and buy a sensible gun for carry (and in the case of police and military for CQB), and perhaps a different gun for competition and range use.

 

[treelogger]

Not every country has a large military budget or even takes having a well trained and equipped military seriously.

The fact that the Swiss of all countries have demanded mag disconnects for 70 years makes your argument absurd.

 

[21SF 2.0]

Why the right thing? They make the gun safer: fewer NDs. I know there are people who think the opposite, that they make the gun less useful (unable to fire a single cartridge without a magazine), but I don't think that use case happens enough in the real world to be worth the safety tradeoff. Same with the LCI tradeoff: it makes the gun more complex, can theoretically cause more malfunctions, but again, its safety impact is more important.

Do I want it to be a legal requirement, like it is now (with CA's roster)? Absolutely not. I would wish that gun people are intelligent enough to make good choices, and buy a sensible gun for carry (and in the case of police and military for CQB), and perhaps a different gun for competition and range use.

They don’t make the gun any safer, if anything the MD makes it less safe.

 

[ZeroFoxGiven]

The fact that the Swiss of all countries have demanded mag disconnects for 70 years makes your argument absurd.

The Swiss, who’s country has a standing military total that which is less than just the US Marine Corps and didn’t bother to fight in WWII, that Swiss? I think this makes my statement twice as strong.

The Swiss only focus on defense, not offense. That has been their doctrine for decades upon decades since their inception. They try to be neutral in everything so people do not attack them. They limit their military numbers to not seem like a threat. That Swiss?

Hell, until fairly recently, their tanks didn’t even have turrets, just the main gun in hull so they could only fire from defensive positions to show they were not a threat as an invading army. That Swiss?

If you are going to make claims and use a reference or example I.e. The Swiss to bolster your opinion/ points, you should make sure that it applies favorably to your argument.

I mean, hell the Swiss don’t fight for any reason apparently, even WWII. If everyone followed your simple logic we would be having this conversation in German instead of debating the merits of a magazine disconnect “Safety” feature.

Hell, I guess your argument does make sense in that the Swiss could just hand in their magazines to a conquering army thus disabling their guns but also saving face by saying they never surrendered their weapons

 

[Malibu]

Why the right thing? They make the gun safer: fewer NDs.

Do I want it to be a legal requirement, like it is now (with CA's roster)? Absolutely not. I would wish that gun people are intelligent enough to make good choices, and buy a sensible gun for carry (and in the case of police and military for CQB), and perhaps a different gun for competition and range use.

1) ND’s are a result of bad gun handling skills, and relying on a mechanical means to combat that only reinforces bad gun handling, because some people come to rely on that mechanical device to take the place of good, proper gun handling skills.

2) Glad to hear that you do not wish to make these mechanical contraptions a legal requirement. That makes sense.

3) So, are you saying my choice of a “carry” weapon is not sensible because it may NOT have a magazine disconnect?
And, why should I have to use a different gun for competition or range use? Ever considered that some of us actually use weapons that we carry for “competition” use?…Not everyone is shooting wherein they desire to win awards, etc. We use some of these competitions as a means of measuring ourselves to find out what we can work on to improve for our unique situations. That is why I have hosted events wherein the participant (shooter) upon the completion of the assigned task re-holsters a weapon that is in the condition of which it is normally carried. That is precisely how things are done at the school I attend, and how we do things at our private club. YMMV.

 

[bonesurf]

I'd go broke.

True Fact - No Lies Detected

yup.

the rest of this thread discussion about LCI and MD is silly.

but I think @westsidearms is right. that the effect wouldn't probably be quite like the OLL thing. also who wants to pay transfer fees ON TOP of the sin tax.

anyways. Wilson CCO, nighthawk treasurer, HK CC9 and Sig 226 X5 legion here I come!

 

[treelogger]

1) ND’s are a result of bad gun handling skills, and relying on a mechanical means to combat that only reinforces bad gun handling, because some people come to rely on that mechanical device to take the place of good, proper gun handling skills.

If you were right, then most militaries and police organizations in the world would be wrong. That seems implausible.

And, why should I have to use a different gun for competition or range use? Ever considered that some of us actually use weapons that we carry for “competition” use?…Not everyone is shooting wherein they desire to win awards, etc.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. If you are going to the range to practice with your carry (or issue) weapon, and to evaluate how good you are with it, then my all means do so. I was talking about the kind of competition shooting and practice where people use pistols that are not a good choice for carry.

YMMV.

Indeed. You do you. If you are of the opinion that your level of training and skills makes you a better and safer shooter without mag disco, go ahead.

 

[21SF 2.0]

How exactly does a mag disconnect make a gun safer?

 

[ZeroFoxGiven]

If you were right, then most militaries and police organizations in the world would be wrong. That seems implausible.
……

You might think that without first hand knowledge.

Let’s start with police officers first. While sure you have your Tackleberry’s, most cops are not gun people.

Can’t tell you how many cops go to annual quals and fail only to have to go to the remedial firearms course just to squeak by on their re-qualification. And I do not mean once in a while, I’m talking every single annual quals, year after year.

Officer had x2 ND’s still made Detective.

Suppose to carry REM 870 in “Patrol Carry" or "Patrol Ready" (different names same thing) in patrol cars (Safety off, trigger pressed and then load tube so if you need it you just rack the pump and good to go. Simplest way to deploy for idiots) and still managed to put a round through the roof of their patrol vehicle grabbing it from the rack.

I could keep writing for days about stupid cops do because they do not take the 4 rules seriously enough. Add stress and bad things like NDs happen. That is just one department.

Now militaries, can’t tell you how many times supposedly well trained NATO forces fired on us by “Mistake” because they didn’t know where the F’ they were and just shoot.

Then, training, and/or training alongside them is even more completely F’d. Remember one time, a Middle Eastern Ally army was using blanks for training with out the muzzle device blank adapter. Basically made their M16’s a bolt action operated because not enough gas return to cycle bolt. Well they thought it was funny to put barrels next to people’s head and pull the trigger, or body contact shots, etc. Yes, that can end badly for someone.

So you see, the 4 Safety rules and actually training is way more important than a dumbass mag disconnect.

Also, as long as cops remedial train and qual, they can keep working year after year without ever getting better or safer. Surprise you? Sure surprised the heck out of me too. But as long as they eventually get the “Pass” they are right back in a patrol car. Cheaper to keep them than replace them. Also, as long as the do eventually pass, legally they are good to go and the department is off the hook because they passed quals.

Because honestly, most will never fire their issued sidearm on-duty. But you might say, but they point their guns at people all the time and bad things can happen. Well, instead of more training, this department made it a “Use of Force” to point your weapon at somebody requiring paper. And we all know how cops love writing reports. So that cut that down a lot without costing money or more time training.

Just saying

 

[tradersarmory]

I think you might overestimate the decline of rostered handgun demand. There are still first time gun owners that have no idea what they want. Seeing how excited some people are for a magazine disconnect, I can use their FUD to make that "safe gun" sale. Or if the customer asks, "What about the roster?" FUD me, "Yeah the accidental death rate is about to skyrocket. You do not want any of those unsafe handguns. Those are for the Maga crowd that hate safety and security. You want a S&W Shield!" Bam sold. Then you more knowledgeable folks walk in and I sell you what you know you want.

I think you're correct about continuing demand for roster models, as there are some people who do feel safer with those features, regardless of whether the government mandates them, or not. However, I think what you're saying about essentially manipulating first time buyers isn't the right way to go about it. First time buyers are seeking information and guidance, and I think it would be more beneficial for everyone in the long run to be upfront about the benefits and drawbacks of all of these features, and the different perspectives on them. First timers will appreciate the dealer for giving them all the information to make the best decision for themselves, and that appreciation and respect will lead to a higher likelihood of repeat business in the future.

I do agree with other posters here: bank accounts would empty, California would suck up a lot of the inventory from other states, most likely increasing prices and possibly causing shortages of popular models, and it would undercut the investment that so many Californians have already put into off-roster guns at high prices in the past few years. I am also in agreement that the LCI is essentially useless, except for in extremely specific scenarios, and could lead to complacence and accidents. The magazine disconnect is a dumb and dangerous "safety" feature, but it is true that it's been around for a long time before the Roster, in guns like the Hi Power. Some people/governments/agencies do want these features, flawed though their reasoning may be. In the immediate sense, it would defnitely be the case that dealers trying to move roster models would need to sell them at steep discounts, possibly even at cost, in order to open up space in their inventory for all the new models.

Over the long run, at least until the next piece of restrictive legislation was inevitably passed, the hype of new models would wear down fairly quickly as people get past the initial buying rush, and let their bank accounts recover, after which supply and demand would equalize. I do think once that happens, we would see massive cuts of older models, like Gen 3 Glocks (which is already happening,) which would allow manufacturers to save production costs and maybe even lower MSRP's of their newer models. Also, say hello to every type of AR, AK, MCX, MPX, SCAR, Bren, Galil, SP5, Scorpion, and all the other braced pistols available to the rest of the country. Assault weapons laws would still be on the books, however, meaning there would be a lot of new fixed magazine solutions invented for all these models, but the options would be innumerable.

 

[JG_in_SB]

For a short time, maybe half a year, there would be pandemonium. The pent-up demand from California gun lovers would be stripping the shelves of stores and distributors nationwide. People in Texas and Florida would hate Californians even more, because suddenly Gen 5 Glocks would be expensive or unavailable on other states, while being sold at 20% over MSRP (instead of 2x or 3x MSRP) in California. Every FFL would have long lines to do paperwork. Scammers like Lady Benjamin Cannon would be running "group buys" to get guns into California fast.

By the way, exactly the above happened in late 2005, when OLLs were suddenly found to be legally obtainable: the whole rest of the US was cleaned out of stripped lowers, their price doubled nationwide, and roughly half a million or a million new ARs (and later AKs) came into the state. There was lots of gnashing of teeth and threats of legislation and registration; remember, the phrase "2 weeks" was coined back then. Ultimately, after lots of gyrations (like Iggy shooting his desk, and threatening to arrest El Rojo, I exaggerate a little for comic effect), things went pretty much back to normal. The legal system will take some time to catch up, with some dumb missteps (like bullet button registration).

For me personally, nothing much would change. I might buy a half dozen more handguns, models that I've been looking for, but can't find good deals on. On the other hand, the value of some of my off-roster guns (currently artificially inflated) would collapse, so from an investment viewpoint, this would be a disaster. But then, I never sell guns, so their nominal value matters little.

Gun makers would even more stop making California-specific models. But then, as the recent Glock example shows, they don't care THAT much about model availability here; they know that California has a lot of money and a lot of gun people, and we'll have to buy SOMETHING. Some gun models would probably lose the LCI and mag disco, but I bet most manufacturers would just keep them there, because they're the right thing to do, and only a small number of ideologically motivated hard-liners really hate them.

All in all: Storm in a teacup.

I'm definitely not a "ideological hard liner" and I despise magazine disconnects. I am only mildly irritated by LCI's which I would prefer not to have but can tolerate. It would be super awesome if manufacturers who put these on pistols would at least offset them (like on my little P238) so they aren't right on the centerline with the sights, or do what Staccato just did with the P4HD and put it on the side of the pistol by just adding an extension on the extractor.

 

[damndave]

I would wait a year for inventory and prices to normalize and then be broke.

 

[westsidearms]

My son manages a well respected LGS, and tells me that most of their sales are to experienced customers who dislike the roster and are knowledgable about it. IMO, using a potential customer’s FUD as a selling strategy is crappy. I would rather see them educated as to why some models are limited by such features. Being truthful with honest, factual information, and some basic education has brought him many, many repeat customers over the years.

I was being a bit trollish. I would never actually do that to a customer. I usually advocate that I do not want a gun with a MD because I want it to go bang any time I pull the trigger. I am honest to the point of losing a sale because I have another job that pays the bills. Selling guns just let's me legally have suppressors.

Why the right thing? They make the gun safer: fewer NDs. I know there are people who think the opposite, that they make the gun less useful (unable to fire a single cartridge without a magazine), but I don't think that use case happens enough in the real world to be worth the safety tradeoff. Same with the LCI tradeoff: it makes the gun more complex, can theoretically cause more malfunctions, but again, its safety impact is more important.

Do I want it to be a legal requirement, like it is now (with CA's roster)? Absolutely not. I would wish that gun people are intelligent enough to make good choices, and buy a sensible gun for carry (and in the case of police and military for CQB), and perhaps a different gun for competition and range use.

There is zero safety value in a magazine disconnect. In fact, they make guns more dangerous because really stupid people think that dropping the magazine makes it safe to point it and point the trigger at others. Same with the LCI. Treat all guns as if they are loaded. Done.

However, I think what you're saying about essentially manipulating first time buyers isn't the right way to go about it. First time buyers are seeking information and guidance, and I think it would be more beneficial for everyone in the long run to be upfront about the benefits and drawbacks of all of these features, and the different perspectives on them. First timers will appreciate the dealer for giving them all the information to make the best decision for themselves, and that appreciation and respect will lead to a higher likelihood of repeat business in the future.

I was joking. I am very honest with customers and that is why they like me.

I do know this. I am going to have a lot of guns I cannot sell very easily if the roster goes away. And sales aren't that spectacular right now on the models I have now. Have your money ready because I am going to need money down to order your goods because I won't have any!

 

[Jimi Jah]

I'm not paying Excremento their 19% blood money tax. Keeping what I have but the extortion fees I will not pay.

 

[tradersarmory]

I was being a bit trollish. I would never actually do that to a customer. I usually advocate that I do not want a gun with a MD because I want it to go bang any time I pull the trigger. I am honest to the point of losing a sale because I have another job that pays the bills. Selling guns just let's me legally have suppressors.

There is zero safety value in a magazine disconnect. In fact, they make guns more dangerous because really stupid people think that dropping the magazine makes it safe to point it and point the trigger at others. Same with the LCI. Treat all guns as if they are loaded. Done.

I was joking. I am very honest with customers and that is why they like me.

I do know this. I am going to have a lot of guns I cannot sell very easily if the roster goes away. And sales aren't that spectacular right now on the models I have now. Have your money ready because I am going to need money down to order your goods because I won't have any!That's good to

That's good to hear! Honesty is always the best policy.

I'm not paying Excremento their 19% blood money tax. Keeping what I have but the extortion fees I will not pay.

Consider yourself lucky! We're in the LA area in Reseda, we have 20.75% with Sales and Excise

 

[Malibu]

That's good to hear! Honesty is always the best policy.

Consider yourself lucky! We're in the LA area in Reseda, we have 20.75% with Sales and Excise

Are you the folks with the pawn shop down on Sherman Way?

 

[tradersarmory]

Are you the folks with the pawn shop down on Sherman Way?

Yes! Sherman Way x Reseda Blvd

 

[Malibu]

Yes! Sherman Way x Reseda Blvd

Haha…know (used to) that area well. Grew up in Woodland Hills and watched the West Valley go through lots of changes. We refer to the WalMart over in West Hills as “The Border”, I’m sure you know why. Liked it a lot better when it was a Sears in the 1970’s. Bought some of the Ted Williams branded rifles there as well. Those were better days.

 

[Michael the Beloved]

I think a number of folks, in the initial few months, would rush to get what they’ve had on their wish list but could not find or afford. One fantastic thing about the Calguns classified threads is that folks know of an existing forum of where they can find and purchase what they’re looking for. So there would just be a lot more threads to have to comb through.

 

[Forkknifegamer67]

How do you think it would affect current inventory? No one would want a CA version. What other effects do you think it would have?

I’d finally get a USP 45- ofc the California versions of handguns will probably be discontinued immediately (and the Glock gen 3 :^(, cops paying off their second alimony with off roster scalping would probably be on suicide watch, but I do wonder if ambulance chaser lawyers will start lawsuits manufacturers for “denying access to firearm safety features” or something stupid like that. Also I bet all manufacturers will probably stop making 10 round mags for a few years since there will be a ton excess from just lost CA sales