Question What is consider acceptable when using mag blocks?

[Plenty_Pack_556]

Let’s collect some data. Who here has ever had their magazines inspected by anyone who might be considered a proper authority in this state? Who here has ever even met a member of the law enforcement community who cared how many rounds your magazines hold? And in the unlikely event that they actually did care (assuming you weren’t selling drugs, committing a robbery, or participating in gang-related activity), who here has ever encountered a law enforcement officer that did not accept the explanation that you got them during Freedom Week, and instead attempted to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you didn’t?

I have, at camp pendleton shooting range. A off-duty power tripping LEO. The range removed the LEO and told him never to come back as this range is meant for Americans.

 

[Hit Factor]

I have, at camp pendleton shooting range. A off-duty power tripping LEO. The range removed the LEO and told him never to come back as this range is meant for Americans.

I shoot a lot, at a lot of places, and that’s the first time I’ve ever heard of anyone having their mags inspected by anyone. I’m glad the range responded the way they did. Did you even get a chance to tell the off-duty LEO that you got them during Freedom Week and then let him attempt to collect enough evidence for a DA with no real crime to go after to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you didn’t?

 

[NapalmCheese]

As you already stated, it is debatable. The problem with permanent is many, many things are not as permanent as the government claims they are.

If the permanency of a pop rivet is debatable, so is the permanency of a mag block. Without an example of the legally considered minimum for "permanent" we literally have nothing to go on but our feelings based on Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. The next best thing we have to go on is "what would a reasonable person consider permanent?". That's a loaded question as there are plenty of reasonable people out there that don't even know magazines can be disassembled and through their ignorance may decide "I can't put 10 rounds in it, so... it must not be an LCM".

How about an epoxied on floor plate? You can just cut it off, take out any limiting devices, reassemble, and glue it back together.

What if you put a blind roll pin in the floor plate so it can't be removed? Drill it out.

What if you epoxy a block to the floor plate that keeps you from both removing the floor plate AND putting in more than 10 rounds? Cut off the floor plate and block in one fell swoop and epoxy the floor plate back onto the mag body.

What if you epoxy a limiter to the bottom of the follower AND roll pin the floor plate AND epoxy the floor plate so it can't be removed? Surely that's permanent? Unless you cut off the floor plate, cut off the limiter from the follower, reassemble, and epoxy the floor plate back on.

What about a 10 round spring and a floor plate that fills the empty void? You can just cut off the floor plate, punch out the piece that fills the void, replace the spring with a 30 round spring, and glue the floor plate back on?

How about a 10 round mag body on a floor plate that mimics the bottom half of a 30 round mag? I can't see any way to 'convert' that, as you have to replace the spring, the mag body, and floor plate; so once again the only safe route is a 10 round mag with a 10 round mag body.

If you can't put 11 rounds in a mag, it's not a LCM. We know that for a fact. The law also states "permanently altered" but does NOT go on to say "meaning you have to have at least high school shop levels of skill in order to alter it into an LCM. If you require less than high school shop levels of skill it's straight to jail. But if you need at least high school shop levels of skill it's totally okay, the magazine was permanently altered into a 10 round before you re-altered into a LCM; and since you had to use your high school level of shop skills to do it that's not illegal".

There is no defined 'minimal level of effort required to be permanent'.

To put it another way, if someone got caught for something and their magazines were confiscated and someone was looking for add on charges; if they found their blocked and fully assembled (but not epoxied, roll pinned, or riveted) 10 rounders would they say they are LCMs? Maybe. If they found their "used to have epoxied on floor plates and a block, but no longer has the limiter as the floor plate was cut off and glued back after reassembling the magazine without the limiter" would they consider that an LCM? Absolutely.

 

[AR15barrels]

As you already stated, it is debatable. The problem with permanent is many, many things are not as permanent as the government claims they are.

The threshold of "what is permanent on firearms" tends to be "not removable without cutting".
So a pop rivet is permanent if you can't remove it without cutting the rivet.
Anything that you can simply unscrew or manipulate without the cutting of material fails the threshold of permanent.
As an example, the ATF has clear guidelines on what is considered "permanent attachment" for muzzle devices:

Methods for Permanent Attachment recognized by the ATF:

• Full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding: This involves using welding to create a strong, integral bond between the components.
• High-temperature (1100°F) silver soldering: This process uses silver solder at a high temperature to join the parts permanently.
• Blind pinning with the pin head welded over: This method involves inserting a pin and then welding over the pin head to prevent removal.

Permanent attached muzzle devices done using the 3rd method above can be removed by cutting through the weld and removing the blind pin.
I do this multiple times a week for people that want to put a different muzzle device or handguard on their barrel.
Then I perm attach a new muzzle device to make the barrel length exceed 16" again.

 

[westsidearms]

The threshold of "what is permanent on firearms" tends to be "not removable without cutting".
So a pop rivet is permanent if you can't remove it without cutting the rivet.
Anything that you can simply unscrew or manipulate without the cutting of material fails the threshold of permanent.
As an example, the ATF has clear guidelines on what is considered "permanent attachment" for muzzle devices:

Permanent attached muzzle devices done using the 3rd method above can be removed by cutting through the weld and removing the blind pin.
I do this multiple times a week for people that want to put a different muzzle device or handguard on their barrel.
Then I perm attach a new muzzle device to make the barrel length exceed 16" again.

I agree with this entirely and think that simply putting a mag block in your magazine with nothing else is not going to go over well in court when the DA shows how easy it is to remove and reinstall the magazine block. That it has never happened that we know of is not material to me. All my magazines were purchased during Freedom Week or with my large capacity magazine permit and I possess them as company property even though the permit is in my name and not the company's. If someone else wants to claim that is permanent, I wish you good luck. I would certainly have better reasoning than that as my planned line of defense. I mean hell, a smart DA would use the fact you used a mag block to prove you knew the magazine was illegal or you would have just left it at standard capacity. You can claim you used it to keep your fixed magazine rifle or pistol legal, but once it is easily proven it was not permanent and therefore a large capacity magazine, now they have you on assault weapon charges. Again, good luck with all of that and when you lose your rights, know you also set case precedent that proves what permanent is. All because you wanted to toy around with the word permanent when you did not need to. Well played.

 

[NapalmCheese]

CA PC 30515(b) "For purposes of this section, “fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action."

Fixed magazine rifles that use something like an AR Maglock or Kingpin require no cutting to remove the "permanently" attached feeding device once the action is open.

This suggests that some amount of mechanical manipulation is the low bar rather than cutting when assuming definitions for 'permanent'.

 

[NapalmCheese]

Again, good luck with all of that and when you lose your rights, know you also set case precedent that proves what permanent is. All because you wanted to toy around with the word permanent when you did not need to. Well played.

If you are, for whatever reason, brought up on gun charges and the opposing attorney asks an expert witness to decide if your epoxied on baseplates are permanent while they try for add on charges; are you 100% certain the expert witness will say "Yes, that's permanent"?

And for your information I use unambiguous 10 round mags because that is the only safe path, everything else is a guess. Whatever potentially legal or illegal magazines you use and/or sell is your own business.

 

[BONECUTR]

If you are, for whatever reason, brought up on gun charges and the opposing attorney asks an expert witness to decide if your epoxied on baseplates are permanent while they try for add on charges; are you 100% certain the expert witness will say "Yes, that's permanent"?

And for your information I use unambiguous 10 round mags because that is the only safe path, everything else is a guess. Whatever potentially legal or illegal magazines you use and/or sell is your own business.

Both Sides will bring in expert witness to say what is permanent so it might boil down to who is more credible or convincing.

 

[socalgunowner909]

semantics

 

[NapalmCheese]

Both Sides will bring in expert witness to say what is permanent so it might boil down to who is more credible or convincing.

If it came down to that, which expert do you think would have the easiest time explaining their findings? The one that says "Here is the video of me defeating this so-called permanent alteration in my lab with basic tools in under 10 minutes" or the one that says "I can't use my thumb to open up the magazine, so it must be permanent"?

All I'm getting at is "we don't know". All we have to go on is FUD and some modicum of guidance from other areas that are not entirely applicable. Unequivocally declaring one thing permanent and another not without any real guidance is folly. The only safe path is 10 round mags with 10 round mag bodies and 10 round mag springs.

 

[NeilDown]

Lot of confusion and that's the point. If they clarified it, then there would be bullet buttons for mags. They'd prefer it be vague.

Also, I believe it's a big difference between pistol and rifle.
Crossing the 10 round mark on a rifle mag gets the DA bonus points as an "Assault Rifle" prosecution.

 

[Jcwatchdog]

What about a magazine that has a floor plate that is 3d printed to include the block? If you take out the block, then you can’t lock the base plate? But of course you can cut the 3d block part off at any time if you were inclined to break the law. But as long as it’s all in one piece, would that be “permanent”? There is no clarification of permanent. Having to use tools, or not having to use tools, it makes no difference. If they want to pinch you they will. We’ve all seen news articles about “assault weapons” being recovered, and if you look closely they may have fin grips or the JT fixed mag setups. They just throw the kitchen sink at anyone who would dare cross them by owning such guns.