Why isn’t there a USPSA (sub-)division for non-race pistols with compensators?

[Deleted member 16735]

Doesn’t have to be new division necessarily. Allow factory compensation in every division and then a checkbox for “compensated”.

Either way, if there’s enough people that would want to compete in such a division, why not?

It’s only “too many” divisions when people don’t want to shoot them.

That's the thing is there's a lot of divisions with very few people in them. Like you would place higher in open than carry optics just by default. The thing is if ports work then it's not really the same as a non ported gun. If it's a mediocre port then why do you need it in the first place?

 

[ikeo1]

I think ported would go well in limited optics, it would basically become factory open minor. Some folks would bleed off from open and carry optics to fill it.

That should also make it more competitive and have two to three strong divisions.

The good thing is USPSA is evolving and adjusting it just takes time. It still needs work from a budgetary standpoint but what org doesn’t have its issues.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I think ported would go well in limited optics, it would basically become factory open minor. Some folks would bleed off from open and carry optics to fill it.

That should also make it more competitive and have two to three strong divisions.

The good thing is USPSA is evolving and adjusting it just takes time. It still needs work from a budgetary standpoint but what org doesn’t have its issues.

but then where do you go if you have a non ported 2011? If anything they should just dissolve limited optics and combine with carry optics, allow magwells and then have open minor separate from open major.

 

[ikeo1]

but then where do you go if you have a non ported 2011? If anything they should just dissolve limited optics and combine with carry optics, allow magwells and then have open minor separate from open major.

Non ported 2011 stays in LO, LO is already differentiated by mostly hammer fire with lighter pull vs strikers. CO can be the stripped down version or just convert LO to open minor anything goes.

Who would fill open minor by itself? There’s not enough. You’d have to take from both open and CO to have enough people to have fun. Otherwise CO is already overweight and needs to spread out same with open. Those are the two biggest divisions. Filling it with more people by allowing factory comps in LO would fit that bill. Keeping it minor keeps out the open guys. A comp really doesn’t help that much for 9mm. It’s noticeable but with the magwell + port plus better trigger it seems like a more suitable fit.

LO itself has grown quite a bit so making it more distinguishable is better. Without major power factor your reducing the effectiveness of the comp.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Non ported 2011 stays in LO, LO is already differentiated by mostly hammer fire with lighter pull vs strikers. CO can be the stripped down version or just convert LO to open minor anything goes.

Who would fill open minor by itself? There’s not enough. You’d have to take from both open and CO to have enough people to have fun. Otherwise CO is already overweight and needs to spread out same with open. Those are the two biggest divisions. Filling it with more people by allowing factory comps in LO would fit that bill. Keeping it minor keeps out the open guys. A comp really doesn’t help that much for 9mm. It’s noticeable but with the magwell + port plus better trigger it seems like a more suitable fit.

LO itself has grown quite a bit so making it more distinguishable is better. Without major power factor your reducing the effectiveness of the comp.

I dunno I feel like if there's a meaningful difference in having a 2011 with magwell vs a striker fired gun, there has to also be a difference in a 2011 vs a ported 2011. I don't have any data on that though

 

[john_marsten_1873]

That's the thing is there's a lot of divisions with very few people in them. Like you would place higher in open than carry optics just by default. The thing is if ports work then it's not really the same as a non ported gun. If it's a mediocre port then why do you need it in the first place?

For example, shooting open with a factory, comped gun won’t tell me which company makes the best ones. And most folks avoid competing there since it’s going up against race guns. There’s currently no way to differentiate between factory and race gun so I still wouldn’t be able to get a comparison.

When I shoot defense drills with a factory comped pistol I’m able to shoot faster with tighter groupings.

I’ll theorize that most folks would be able shoot faster and more accurate with comped factory pistols, even mediocre ones.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

For example, shooting open with a factory, comped gun won’t tell me which company makes the best ones. And most folks avoid competing there since it’s going up against race guns. There’s currently no way to differentiate between factory and race gun so I still wouldn’t be able to get a comparison.

When I shoot defense drills with a factory comped pistol I’m able to shoot faster with tighter groupings.

I’ll theorize that most folks would be able shoot faster and more accurate with comped factory pistols, even mediocre ones.

And that's why they aren't allowed in production or carry optics

 

[jhsd20]

Hot take: remove major scoring.
Without major amount a tricked out open gun in 38 super comp doesn't really have a huge advantage over a ported glock.

It sucks for people who have invesred in open calibers, but USPSA was conceived at the height of the caliber wars. They're over now and 9mm won, the sport will eventually need to catch up to that reality.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Hot take: remove major scoring.
Without major amount a tricked out open gun in 38 super comp doesn't really have a huge advantage over a ported glock.

It sucks for people who have invesred in open calibers, but USPSA was conceived at the height of the caliber wars. They're over now and 9mm won, the sport will eventually need to catch up to that reality.

Save these guys some money! also save me from sorting out 40 cal brass lol

 

[ikeo1]

Hot take: remove major scoring.
Without major amount a tricked out open gun in 38 super comp doesn't really have a huge advantage over a ported glock.

It sucks for people who have invesred in open calibers, but USPSA was conceived at the height of the caliber wars. They're over now and 9mm won, the sport will eventually need to catch up to that reality.

Definitely a hot take, but those divisions are basically what F1 is to cars all the tech eventually moves down from ballistics to the comp and red dot and thumb rest etc.

Lets the rich guys fund the research and development for us blokes.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Hot take: remove major scoring.
Without major amount a tricked out open gun in 38 super comp doesn't really have a huge advantage over a ported glock.

It sucks for people who have invesred in open calibers, but USPSA was conceived at the height of the caliber wars. They're over now and 9mm won, the sport will eventually need to catch up to that reality.

While I don’t think race guns are Practical I wouldn’t want to over-index on that. I think they’re like R&D where improvements there trickle down to factory guns.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Save these guys some money! also save me from sorting out 40 cal brass lol

We need a laugh reaction emoji.

 

[Gryff]

Because they are 9mm. Pretty much all USPSA shooters can handle 9mm Luger recoil.

 

[ugimports]

A good chunk of my pistols have compensation - or can be configured to.

I feel that compensators are commonplace now and I’m wondering what it might take to get USPSA and other competition leagues to have a division - or sub-division - for compensated pistols that would also be allowed in production, limited, co…

What is your goal? To win prizes or just get better? In some posts in this thread you talk about wanting to improve your skills, etc.. You can do all that regardless of the division you are in as you are going to be measuring yourself against yourself. The classifiers are "stock" stages as well where if you get very proficient in your setup you WILL move up in class.

For example a GM can probably shoot a gun in any division at GM skill. I would argue that down to A class is probably close to that as well. Your Practiscore score will show your score relative to all classes and divisions. If you're just trying to get better... shoot in whatever division the pistol falls into now and just keep shooting and getting better.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

What is your goal? To win prizes or just get better? In some posts in this thread you talk about wanting to improve your skills, etc.. You can do all that regardless of the division you are in as you are going to be measuring yourself against yourself. The classifiers are "stock" stages as well where if you get very proficient in your setup you WILL move up in class.

For example a GM can probably shoot a gun in any division at GM skill. I would argue that down to A class is probably close to that as well. Your Practiscore score will show your score relative to all classes and divisions. If you're just trying to get better... shoot in whatever division the pistol falls into now and just keep shooting and getting better.

I generally find the pressure’s of competition adding an additional layer that’s valuable for my training. If I’m competing in open (against race guns) with my X-Macro or 320 AXG Legion, I’m probably never getting past D class - and especially since I shoot irons.

In an actual division, there’d be other folks to compete, push each other a bit more, and to share ideas and resources with. I genuinely think a good number of folks would be interested in competing in such divisions(s).

 

[QuailhunterCA]

"I mean this in the nicest way possible but you aren't going to win anyway."
You're absolutely right! LMFAO I just barely got my first [D] classification in production so I'm WAAAY ahead of myself.

However, even the thought that I could potentially be competitive is enough to make me want to compete just a little bit more. At the same time I'm primarily defense minded and mainly compete for the crossover benefits. Also, the stage planning probably pretty good cognitive benefits.

Also, I'm curious if more people feel the same and would compete in such a division or sub-division were it offered.

IDPA allows comps and carry mag wells. They have different rules about weight, target engagement, mag capacity, etc… In my area the people that shoot IDPA are amazing, which makes shooting IDPA more fun than USPSA, where people are nice but super “raced out” and competitive. IDPA is just more chill.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

IDPA allows comps and carry mag wells. They have different rules about weight, target engagement, mag capacity, etc… In my area the people that shoot IDPA are amazing, which makes shooting IDPA more fun than USPSA, where people are nice but super “raced out” and competitive. IDPA is just more chill.

IDPA is great! And it’s great that there are divisions for factory comp pistols. USPSA is certainly different enough that there’s great value in competing in both (and other leagues). In my area USPSA matches are run more frequently so that’s where I get more opportunity to train/compete.

 

[Hit Factor]

For example a GM can probably shoot a gun in any division at GM skill.

I know a guy who made GM in PCC, and that automatically made him an M in everything else. But his high percentages in everything besides PCC were all C class scores.

 

[ugimports]

I know a guy who made GM in PCC, and that automatically made him an M in everything else. But his high percentages in everything besides PCC were all C class scores.

I can see that... but a GM or M across the pistol disciplines is probably a much different story because the mechanics are the same.

 

[SteelChallengeFiend]

You said it yourself. You're not even that interested in the sport. You do it for crossover training reasons primarily and you're the lowest classification as well. I find it interesting how many people are SO vocal about changing rules for sports they don't even understand thoroughly. While the actual people who compete and care about the sport understand why the rules exist in the first place. (Though there are exceptions).

As others have said, you could shoot open and it'd make no difference whatsoever since you wouldn't win in either your ideal division or the open one. I've been to plenty of matches where the top overall guys who even beat Open Shooters were just guys competing in CO with a stock Glock.

There are other sports with more lenient rules that are very similar to USPSA.