Why training matters… especially as LE.

[Gawernator]

“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face” Mike Tyson

Everybody Has Plans Until They Get Hit for the First Time - Mike Tyson
actual quote​

 

[aema15]

Complete disregard for his own safety too. Exposed himself twice to his adversary and was lucky enough to reload right in the open like that.

 

[Enthused]

It's not always going to look pretty, but I like how he continued to push forward and engage the suspect. The woman's brains being blown out directly in front of the officer resulted in him going into cave man mode essentially.

If he decides to retire after this one I wouldn't blame him at all. He can go out with his head held high. This job not only isn't for everyone, but it's not for about 99.9% of the population.

Side note, these types of shootings take a small piece from you. I regularly watch policeactivity, and I can sit and watch bad guys getting shot down all day long with no issues at all. But you get these types of shootings where an innocent victim is inflicted with deadly violence, and it will take a small piece of you.

 

[ikeo1]

It's not always going to look pretty, but I like how he continued to push forward and engage the suspect. The woman's brains being blown out directly in front of the officer resulted in him going into cave man mode essentially.

Totally agree. Dude was in shock, from seeing her basically get executed and drew very fast, but didn't get a grip and looked a little discombobulated. His reloads were decent for the amount of stress in the moment. It was an extremely stressful situation. That's about as basic as you can go.

 

[bcj68]

Wow! I love how we're all monday-morning quarterbacking from the comfort from behind our computer screens...

Truth - cops are not all as proficient as they really should be with their firearms, and yes there are many who see qualifying as an inconvenience. Trust me I know this with confidence.

Also truth - when you are suddenly faced with a deadly threat, even when you may be expecting it, adrenaline takes over. This was an honest to god real life gunfight. Bad guy is turning the gun on cop (not sure if he fired...). Cop is suddenly hit with the fight or flight response. His fine motor skills go out the window, maybe he can aim, but possibly not.

All he is thinking is "I want to get rounds on this guy before he gets them on me." It is one of the most primal and basic instinctual reactions our bodies/brains have. I don't know how many of you out there have faced something like this, and if you have, you have my respect. However, if you have you know how chaotic and life altering this kind of event is. Those of us who haven't, maybe take a beat.

So yes, this is a learning moment, but also for crying out loud, give a little grace from behind your computer screens...I'd hate to have to face a similar situation and deal with you all afterwards.

Therefore but by the grace of God there go I...

 

[bazooka]

My heart goes out to the woman who was killed and the cop who had to deal with it. I have no criticism of how the cop performed since I've never been in such a stressful situation. Early on, the bad guy threw is gun at the officer. It's hard to know whether the officer registered that or not. From then on, he had to shoot while chasing the guy.

As soon as backup arrived, the cop asked them to help the woman who was shot. Protect and serve comes to mind. The cop deserves our thanks and full support. It will be a long road for him to recover.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

Wow! I love how we're all monday-morning quarterbacking from the comfort from behind our computer screens...

Truth - cops are not all as proficient as they really should be with their firearms, and yes there are many who see qualifying as an inconvenience. Trust me I know this with confidence.

Also truth - when you are suddenly faced with a deadly threat, even when you may be expecting it, adrenaline takes over. This was an honest to god real life gunfight. Bad guy is turning the gun on cop (not sure if he fired...). Cop is suddenly hit with the fight or flight response. His fine motor skills go out the window, maybe he can aim, but possibly not.

All he is thinking is "I want to get rounds on this guy before he gets them on me." It is one of the most primal and basic instinctual reactions our bodies/brains have. I don't know how many of you out there have faced something like this, and if you have, you have my respect. However, if you have you know how chaotic and life altering this kind of event is. Those of us who haven't, maybe take a beat.

So yes, this is a learning moment, but also for crying out loud, give a little grace from behind your computer screens...I'd hate to have to face a similar situation and deal with you all afterwards.

Therefore but by the grace of God there go I...

EXACTLY . . . Much easier to be on target when the target is NOT shooting back. I bet many (here) would have an equally hard time in the same situation.

Also a question for the LEOs or Lawyers in the group. Once the Shooter tossed his gun is it still a good shoot when perp was running away??

 

[bcj68]

In CA he might be in trouble if a reasonable person would have seen / perceived the drop of the gun. We changed our lethal force from “reasonable” to “necessary” as in if an officer in a similar situation, would’ve perceived it as necessary..

However, if he did not see the gun being tossed, then likely he would be OK.

 

[chiroken007]

I am gonna go ahead and be brutally pragmatic.
When this guy literally executed the woman right in front of the officer like that.. he forfeited his right to remain among us.

 

[bcj68]

I am gonna go ahead and be brutally pragmatic.
When this guy literally executed the woman right in front of the officer like that.. he forfeited his right to remain among us.

While I completely see where you’re coming from - he is in Illinois, and LE doesn’t get to be judge, jury, and executioner - unless your suspect does t give him a choice. It FEELS better the way you put it - some level of cosmic justice. But the law may look at it differently - it will depend a lot on what he perceived in the moment. If he was still in the fight - that’s one thing. Let’s let the investigation play out. A lot of times there’s more than what we see on the camera.

 

[chiroken007]

While I completely see where you’re coming from - he is in Illinois, and LE doesn’t get to be judge, jury, and executioner - unless your suspect does t give him a choice. It FEELS better the way you put it - some level of cosmic justice. But the law may look at it differently - it will depend a lot on what he perceived in the moment. If he was still in the fight - that’s one thing. Let’s let the investigation play out. A lot of times there’s more than what we see on the camera.

For sure. I am not saying it’s ok for police to just make those decisions. I’m just saying he has clearly proven his “value” to society and found void.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Tragic video… but Jesus this officer needs a lot of training to do because if there were bystanders a lot more people could have gotten hurt. That one handed shooting is insane landing a lucky hit at the end but seeing a civilian come out the car could have been collateral.

Seems like there was a lot of one handed shooting? Do you think it’s because he was under stress; he switched to shooting with one hand instead of both hands?

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Not a surprise to me at all.

He had all the fancy stuff: G45(?) with the fancy optic (COA?) and the WML. Never acquired a sight picture and was just spraying and praying.

I’ve seen this countless times during AOT (advanced officer training) when I was active. A lot of officers are straight-up bothered they have to carry a weapon. They see them like the baton, pepper spray, rover: something the P&P manual says they have to have with them and that’s all.

Or…they’re basically LARP’ing as gunfighters with the back-in-the-day equivalent of Staccatos, Glock COA’s, etc. (There was one detective who had her Glock slide gold-plated and carried it in a shoulder holster. She could never qual the first time and always had to go to remedial qual and would barely make it).

They can barely pass the quarterly qual. And when we (the SRT folks) put *just* a little pressure on them in scenario-based, dynamic simunition training, they completely fell apart…just like in this video.

Do you think if this officer started attending USPA or IDPA practice days or even matches, and took it seriously; could it have helped him in this stressful scenario?

 

[Gawernator]

Do you think if this officer started attending USPA or IDPA practice days or even matches, and took it seriously; could it have helped him in this stressful scenario?

100%, of course more practice

 

[Diabolus]

Super stressful situation for the cop. I've been in a number of training scenarios using simunition with officers and while a couple stood out, most aren't all that proficient at shooting. They were good at tactics, communicated well, and that helped them in many of the scenarios. The one that I thought was good did USPSA and trained on his own time, they don't get a whole lot of firearms training post academy.

 

[joefrank64k]

Do you think if this officer started attending USPA or IDPA practice days or even matches, and took it seriously; could it have helped him in this stressful scenario?

It’s hard to say.

Nothing can completely prepare you for your first time on a two-way range. The drills we’d run with simunitions would rattle anyone, and they weren’t real life.

I once got hit on the bridge of my nose with a 9mm sim round. Those things hurt, haha!! I kept working the problem, but for sure it compromised my dexterity and thought process.

What I see in that video is someone who has never had the experience of being shot at (even with sims). That level of training is time-intensive and expensive. Sims and the hardware aren’t cheap. Many departments have gone to qual three times a year vs four to save money.

Going back to my experience getting hit with a sim: it was an IOD claim, had to go to the doctor to get the wound checked and cleaned out, a stitch or two, meds for swelling. I was out IOD for a couple of days. That’s a real cost to the Department.

Finally to your question (haha!!): could participation in competitions help?

Answer: Maybe??

From a training perspective, the things they mandate in competition for safety (not breaking 180, showing a clear weapon after a stage, etc) would be a disaster in an actual gunfight.

OTOH, the stress of the ‘beep’, shooting while moving (getting off the X), reloading under pressure, etc *could* translate to better performance in a gunfight. Of course, the equipment used would need to be identical to duty equipment (no high speed holsters and mag pouches for example). It’s way different trying to reload when wearing a duty belt, vest, rover, taser, etc. vs just tech fabric shirts and pants.

Ok, this is getting WAY too long, haha!!

Tl:dr - The best training simulates a two-way range with actual projectiles being shot at you. But, that usually doesn’t happen due to training budgets and personnel shortages. Encouraging participation in competitions may help, as long as the equipment replicates duty equipment as close as possible.

IMHO, YMMV, my $0.02 and worth less than that.

 

[rodralig]

First time out, a USPSA/IDPA competition shooter may not necessarily stand out in a FoF or other dynamic scenario. They’ll likely already have the speed, accuracy, gun handling, and efficiency, but tactics - the mental plan, decision-making, and execution may initially be their weak link.

Give them a few rounds of good FoF training, though, and I see them ramp up very quickly. They’re not learning how to run the gun from scratch; they’re learning how to apply an already-developed skill set to a different problem.

Then, once they start performing well, you’ll inevitably hear from those getting "left behind" - “Yeah, but that’s because he shoots competition.”

Exactly. That’s kind of the point.