Will there be an OT

[Malibu]

ikeo1;

Thank you for the cost $ explanation regarding how much an “off topic” section of the forum might cost. As someone who has limited knowledge of how these things go from the financial end, I appreciate the education.
While I enjoyed perusing the OT on the failed Calguns, I can certainly live without it if it meant having to pay extra. After seeing how the failed Calguns collected money from supporters, and left them standing there in the wind, I’d be pissed if I were one of those supporters. Lesson learned.
As to moderation of such an OT section, I get it that the time commitment would be huge. My thought is that if someone doesn’t like it, they simply don’t go there. The $$ though, that is the final decision in my my mind.
Carry on….

 

[Tere_Hanges]

Firstly, I recommend that you read 'Politics and the English Language'. I suspect that it will make no difference in your writing; however, there is always hope. Secondly, please stop with your trying to bully users on this network into not discussing the prospect of having an 'opt-in' OT forum. It is clear that "under the guise of being" understanding, apolitical, nonjudgemental, truth-bearing centrist, etc. (your words in quotations), you are mainly trying to instill a sense of anxiety or apprehension about the plausibility of having an 'opt-in' OT forum. If an OT forum is created, I am confident that this network will be just as fine with or without your presence.

I'm bullying users now simply by expressing a contrary opinion? What happened to being "thick-skinned"? Geez, look in the mirror. Your post is clearly intended to silence or dismiss my perspective by labeling me a "bully" simply for expressing a view you don't like. I haven't bullied anyone in this thread. I merely stated an unpopular opinion about OT, explaining how it's going to attract trolls and lead to drama that the mods will have to deal with. My opinion is based on observations from CGN OT. I'm not just making it up.

Ikeo, this is just a preview of what OT will be like, a bunch of bickering and machismo bullcrap. We can't even discuss OT without people accusing others of "bullying" merely for expressing an opinion they don't like. It's just unnecessary drama.

 

[ikeo1]

Ikeo, this is just a preview of what OT will be like, a bunch of bickering and machismo bullcrap. We can't even discuss OT without people accusing others of "bullying" merely for expressing an opinion they don't like. It's just unnecessary drama.

You don't really see that you're doing the same thing. I've noticed it for awhile. You're posts are very passive aggressive. I wouldn't characterize your posts as bullying, but it leads as strong as some of the others. Keep in mind I have no bias between yall. I never stepped into OT until it first came up here. I was actually surprised at how active OT was there. I can see the benefits of it, but visiting now, you can see what its become.

This is why i pose the question back to requestors.

Thank you for the cost $ explanation regarding how much an “off topic” section of the forum might cost. As someone who has limited knowledge of how these things go from the financial end, I appreciate the education.

This is something i discovered while i was thinking about it from the "off topic" thread. I went in and did some investigation on the resource usage of it. OT is quite active and competes with the marketplace in terms of search, posts, reads, etc. I looked at the 'new topics' link and saw majority is either marketplace or OT. Here the forum and marketplace is split so resources aren't shared. This is by far the biggest problem with CGN.

It's lots of little details they missed that's causing the contention when many users are signed in at once. The same issue that caused the cloud bill to balloon from $400 to $800 in two months and if they were to continue where they were at 1.8TB it would've easily been $1.2k/mo. I've read some past posts about funding, it seems like there might be some fund shortage. I would link everything but its hard when the site times out. I can say though, CGN would work if it didn't have the marketplace OR OT. For sure that's causing problems for the rest of the site. OT is not helping and also hurting the situation.

The resource usage is not so much an issue here as moderation until it becomes a problem where it dwarfs the rest of the site. 9 million posts for OT, ~9 million for marketplace, 5 million posts for everything else. Here we wouldn't have as many marketplace posts because we got rid of the "Bump" posts in place of a button. so instead of 7-20 bumps plus signatures. The listing it "updated" with a timestamp. No extra posts or resources used. I estimated it would reduce marketplace posts by ~75%. Assuming 3-4 bumps per listing. With OT the only way to reduce the count is to purge the history there. That would also speed up CGN, I'm really waiting for them to do some of these things, because last time when they came back online traffic here plummeted. They were working good enough on cloud hosting to kill the traffic here. Then sabotaged themselves by moving to the cheaper dedicated server because it got too expensive, which ended up bringing a bunch of people over. It's ironic that I built the site for when CGN goes down but never expected them to stay down.

 

[Tere_Hanges]

You don't really see that you're doing the same thing. I've noticed it for awhile. You're posts are very passive aggressive. I wouldn't characterize your posts as bullying, but it leads as strong as some of the others. Keep in mind I have no bias between yall. I never stepped into OT until it first came up here. I was actually surprised at how active OT was there. I can see the benefits of it, but visiting now, you can see what its become.

I respectfully disagree that my posts are passive-aggressive. Strong? Yes. Assertive? Yes. Contrary? Sometimes. Accurate and fair? Yes. But I take care specifically not to be passive-aggressive. I hope people can distinguish the difference.

 

[jocww]

I respectfully disagree that my posts are passive-aggressive. Strong? Yes. Assertive? Yes. Contrary? Sometimes. Accurate and fair? Yes. But I take care specifically not to be passive-aggressive. I hope people can distinguish the difference.

Its kind of hard to distinguish when he (ikeo1) says your the flip side of the coin and you get uppity about it. I get it your either the Devils Advocate or your more on the liberal side. To be honest Im pretty liberal too until it comes to taxes, guns, and my rights Then Im on the right/ libertarian. But I digress you do bait people to go on Tirades and then you play victim which isn't really fair is it. I get it you may come from a different generation than P or the others, and that you have "strong, and assertive" opinions that you want to share and when that goes against somebody else you dont like it. The tough skin part is you agree to disagree, you walk away after you state your opinion and you let it die, etc. but whatever way it ends you dont take it personal.

Take for instance this subject I get it you dont want an OT and your vocal about it. great I dont agree with you. ikeo1 tries to give you options you continue to piss on it, without having anything productive to add. I dont hate you for this, Im not going to block you (if that is even an option) I just agree to disagree.

 

[Tere_Hanges]

Its kind of hard to distinguish when he (ikeo1) says your the flip side of the coin and you get uppity about it. I get it your either the Devils Advocate or your more on the liberal side. To be honest Im pretty liberal too until it comes to taxes, guns, and my rights Then Im on the right/ libertarian. But I digress you do bait people to go on Tirades and then you play victim which isn't really fair is it. I get it you may come from a different generation than P or the others, and that you have "strong, and assertive" opinions that you want to share and when that goes against somebody else you dont like it. The tough skin part is you agree to disagree, you walk away after you state your opinion and you let it die, etc. but whatever way it ends you dont take it personal.

Take for instance this subject I get it you dont want an OT and your vocal about it. great I dont agree with you. ikeo1 tries to give you options you continue to piss on it, without having anything productive to add. I dont hate you for this, Im not going to block you (if that is even an option) I just agree to disagree.

I don't agree with most of what you said because it simply isn't accurate. Have a good day nonetheless.

 

[shovelon]

Looks like General Discussion has become the De-facto Off Topic.

 

[Baracudaaa]

It's pretty simple.

Want growth= Add an OT.

Want small but focused = Don't add OT.

I can already tell by this 1 thread who is on what side of the Isle, and who i would enjoy getting a beer with, and who i scroll to the end of their whinny posts.

Just my .02, but that's the way roll. I support a strong 2A, and life with OT on various websites.

 

[ikeo1]

Looks like General Discussion has become the De-facto Off Topic.

This is how its been when this topic comes up. I added a current events section but our strength is mainly the marketplace.

It's pretty simple.

Want growth= Add an OT.

Want small but focused = Don't add OT.

Doesn't necessarily need to be small but definitely more focused. IMO the main thing OT adds is more discussion, not necessarily new users. Since the main area I wanted to focus on is the marketplace and classes for shooters old and new. I think I'll focus there as I do have a list of high level instructors coming to NorCal but I've been preoccupied with this thread. I'm still building the site, we're still getting started and growing. If we do it, it'll definitely be a sectioned off opt-in/out area. Thanks @Malibu for acknowledging the cost implications.

Just a note, I'm still investing in other features for the marketplace. So there's more to come on that side.

This site is for people who support 2A for self defense and sport.

 

[Glassmtn]

I’m not a fan of OT on a website that is anonymous. In my experience, even with moderation, it inevitable turns into the worst kind of high school locker room discussion. All that nastiness ends up clouding the rest of the site even if it is “contained” behind a paywall. Anonymity breeds bravery in the minds of bullies and bigots. One of the reasons I never financially supported calguns was because of the underlying tones of racism and hate that inevitably came up. Somebody would make an off color comment then the train would show up. The reason I have been supportive and vocal about this site is ,so far, all that crap has stayed back at CalGuns. I really don’t believe it’s possible to have a healthy and respectful discourse about any topic, especially 2A, if the participants are anonymous.
If you want a place to hang out and shoot the set up another website with a different domain. I heard calguns.org might be available.

 

[ChestnutBleach]

+1 for no-OT. Reasons already stated; OT threads and posts turn into garbage. I come to a site like this to talk firearms. We should be discussing why Glock is the best firearm of all time! If i want to talk about muscle cars, I’ll go to a Tesla website. :flame suit on:

J/K

But seriously, I’d rather go to a theme-specific site to discuss the high-level topic I want to discuss. If I want to talk about cars, I’ll go to a car site. If I want to talk about sports card collecting, I’ll go to one of those sites. Nothing good comes from an open ended sub forum.



PS. Glocks are cool, but I’m not a Glock fanboy…really.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I used the OT the most at Calguns for the past few years will there be one here as well?

I gotta cast my vote for no OT section. OT kills sites IMHO, and it's worse with anonymity.

 

[Malibu]

Cost issues aside, for those who do not like OT for what ever reason, if it is in a separate section of the forum, and you are not forced to view it in order to get to the content you prefer, how can it be that you might feel bullied, trolled, defamed, insulted, or whatever else? If you never go inside to OT, how would you even know what goes on there? Or is it that you can’t resist if you see a snapshot of a thread title from a header page?
I liken it to driving down the freeway; in going to my destination I pass many exits. I don’t get off at those because I don’t want to; however I’m not telling the driver behind or ahead of me that he can’t either, because I don’t know who he is, or what he says once he gets there.

 

[ChestnutBleach]

If you never go inside to OT, how would you even know what goes on there?

It’s not the threads or posts in OT that’s the problem, it’s the [negative] people, attitudes, cultural essence…,what ever you want to call it, don’t stay in OT; they spill into other areas of the site. Before one knows it, site is cliquey, unwelcoming, and only used to sell stuff. But because the site is unwelcoming, stuff doesn’t sell. So what’s the point of the site.

Wait…..I’ve heard this before.

 

[Glassmtn]

Cost issues aside, for those who do not like OT for what ever reason, if it is in a separate section of the forum, and you are not forced to view it in order to get to the content you prefer, how can it be that you might feel bullied, trolled, defamed, insulted, or whatever else? If you never go inside to OT, how would you even know what goes on there? Or is it that you can’t resist if you see a snapshot of a thread title from a header page?
I liken it to driving down the freeway; in going to my destination I pass many exits. I don’t get off at those because I don’t want to; however I’m not telling the driver behind or ahead of me that he can’t either, because I don’t know who he is, or what he says once he gets there.

Because it sets a tone that can permiate through the whole site. I think your freeway analogy is too broad. It more like a neighborhood. One junky house on a block, or rude neighbor, affects the experience of everyone who lives on or visits that street.
If we want to continue with the freeway analogy here’s another way of looking at it. The internet is a freeway. Every website is an exit. If you want services that aren’t provided at this exit you are free to continue down the road to an exit that has what you are looking for. You can even get off at multiple exits. If one exit has a cheap gas station and the next has a great lunch spot you can visit both. Nobody is forcing you to do everything in one place.

 

[fifer55]

Hasn’t this been discussed already?

My humble opinion on this topic is in that thread, but another NO GO on OT

 

[Wolkenflieger]

It’s not the threads or posts in OT that’s the problem, it’s the [negative] people, attitudes, cultural essence…,what ever you want to call it, don’t stay in OT; they spill into other areas of the site. Before one knows it, site is cliquey, unwelcoming, and only used to sell stuff. But because the site is unwelcoming, stuff doesn’t sell. So what’s the point of the site.

Wait…..I’ve heard this before.

I think the moderators here are excellent, but an OT section is really going to allow people untrained in debate or logical fallacies to discuss....anything? If certain topics are barred then it proves the point. Not everyone is emotionally equipped to handle the debates in which they will invariably be involved.

The OT section will devolve into all the ways humans devolve when disagreeing, especially with tensions high in an election year. We know there's going to be a massive war regarding presidential candidates and various political talking points, that much is obvious. The crazy will come, and factions will develop. The anonymity (real or perceived) will only make this worse. Tensions will rise generally.

On a site I use for *in-person* firearm PPT, the last thing I want is someone laying in wait to meet me after we've had a battle royale over presidential candidates or any topic. This is different than most forums. I know I'm stoic and rational, but not everyone is so well regulated. We don't need an emotionally unregulated militia who may have a reason to meet in person. Pun intended.

I wish more people cared about the laws of logic, avoiding logical fallacies, arguing the point and not the person, and writing well—but that's not most people online today. I do think gun people are hardier and more rational than the whole of Reddit, so there's that. Are we willing to test this with an OT section which will just add costs for the owners/mods? As the site is, it's ad-free and beautiful, without a million user GIF avatars everywhere. It's lean and mean, and I'd hate to see that sullied.

If we're going to have an OT section, it should be no-holds-barred but for illegal speech (like X's guidelines) or speech which is obviously a threat of physical violence. If we can't handle certain topics, then why have an OT section at all? Rational adults can discuss anything with detached stoicism, even religion or other 'no go' topics. Yet, when people argue dishonestly (which can and will happen), it sends even the most rational people into rage mode. This is reason #414,399 why avoiding logical fallacies is paramount, but try telling that to someone who just wants to "win" and doesn't care at all about the laws of logic or learning (and avoiding) known logical fallacies.

Lastly, I'm not here to discuss OT ideas with people, and the OT headlines tend to draw us in against our better judgement. I would prefer this site is like my workplace...we all have opinions but we choose to keep it on-topic but for some light humor here and there. If the conversation runs a little dry apart from helping newcomers, so be it.

 

[ikeo1]

Hasn’t this been discussed already?

My humble opinion on this topic is in that thread, but another NO GO on OT

its ok to revisit from time to time. We like to learn and check the temperature for things.

I would prefer this site is like my workplace...we all have opinions but we choose to keep it on-topic but for some light humor here and there. If the conversation runs a little dry apart from helping newcomers, so be it.

This is more like what we envision. Less like a bar, more like business casual. Shoot the with a little banter. We are trying to keep the site lean and fast. Also we're still planning for another migration. Next version will open up some doors for us. I'm pushing to get auto-bump and saved searches (with notifications) for subscribers. Still negotiating those with the devs but not likely on this version of the forum software. We'll have to bump up one revision. One feature for buyers/sellers. That's where I prefer to spend my time.

Also, we may have a new site sponsor. I'm negotiating with them to see if we can get it going. Along with the classes in Norcal, i'd rather not deal with moderating OT.

 

[Malibu]

This has been interesting. If I were to ever meet someone from here to conduct a sale or other business (almost ZERO likelihood) I certainly wouldn’t be engaged in social/political/religious/etc discussions that are found in a typical OT, so for me that is not of concern. Over on CG I was a few times attacked in OT for various reasons, but I went in there with the full understanding that being the subject of other’s disdain was certainly possible.
I never felt that OT took away from the knowledge base that was shared, because I could simply not engage with those posting in certain ways. Some of it was downright funny as well. I also believe that getting worked up over what some anonymous individual posted is letting them live rent-free in your head. See it for what it (all these forums) is: an interactive screen that can simply be switched or turned off.

 

[Baracudaaa]

Attitudes permeate from OT and infect other areas of a site?
It would be nice to have a 2A site where everyone thought alike, there was no dissent, everyone was respectful of each other and others genders, and at the end of the day we had a pillow fight then ate ice cream together, virtually.
It sounds like a potential site full of Stuart Smalleys.