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DUNCAN V. BONTA GOES TO SCOTUS CONFERENCE - California Large Capacity Magazine Prohibition

Justice Department Sues Colorado for Unconstitutional Weapons Ban of Standard-Capacity Firearms Magazines

I think this dramatically increases the chances of SCOTUS taking Duncan v. Bonta.
Why? This litigation presents the same “product” prohibition challenge as Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, but doesn’t touch on the foundational issues of “process” in evaluating 2A issues that those two cases bring. Moreover, the case would have to proceed through District and then 10th Court of appeals before any conflict arose. That’s a 6-7 year ride.

We’d be better off if .gov filed an Amicus brief in Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, both of which are sitting at SCOTUS, and directly attacked the underlying process used to decide those cases.

For a discussion on the conflict caused by Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, please see Post #796 @ : https://caguns.net/threads/duncan-v...agazine-prohibition.26642/page-40#post-134045
 
Why? This litigation presents the same “product” prohibition challenge as Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, but doesn’t touch on the foundational issues of “process” in evaluating 2A issues that those two cases bring. Moreover, the case would have to proceed through District and then 10th Court of appeals before any conflict arose. That’s a 6-7 year ride.

We’d be better off if .gov filed an Amicus brief in Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, both of which are sitting at SCOTUS, and directly attacked the underlying process used to decide those cases.

For a discussion on the conflict caused by Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, please see Post #796 @ : https://caguns.net/threads/duncan-v...agazine-prohibition.26642/page-40#post-134045

What is the DOJ's reasoning for suing Colorado? Is it just empty lip service before mid terms or does it hold any weight for us?
 
Does that help with Duncan v Bonta or Miller v Bonta at all in the future (or any other)? Sounds like from your previous assessment that it does nothing
This is an initial filing in Colorado. It means nothing right now and will take years to travel through the courts. As an example, Duncan has been in courts for a decade. Any appeal of a verdict will climb through the 10 Circuit Court of Appeals, not the 9th, so it wouldn’t impact these cases, but it might create a circuit split many years from now. The Colorado issue and Duncan contest prohibitions of Large Capacity Magazines, but Miller contests assault weapon prohibitions, so won’t be affected on a “product” base.

If you work through the reference to Duncan and Gator I posted above, you’ll see why these “product” cases are less important than the “process” case of Duncan.
 
Why? This litigation presents the same “product” prohibition challenge as Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, but doesn’t touch on the foundational issues of “process” in evaluating 2A issues that those two cases bring. Moreover, the case would have to proceed through District and then 10th Court of appeals before any conflict arose. That’s a 6-7 year ride.

We’d be better off if .gov filed an Amicus brief in Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, both of which are sitting at SCOTUS, and directly attacked the underlying process used to decide those cases.

For a discussion on the conflict caused by Duncan and Gator’s Custom Guns, please see Post #796 @ : https://caguns.net/threads/duncan-v...agazine-prohibition.26642/page-40#post-134045
Because the federal government is now formally arguing that standard-capacity magazines are protected arms “in common use,” which directly conflicts with the Ninth Circuit’s reasoning in Duncan. When the DOJ itself tells the Court that lower courts are misapplying Bruen and Heller, it raises institutional conflict of the issue and increases pressure for SCOTUS review.
 
What is the DOJ's reasoning for suing Colorado? Is it just empty lip service before mid terms or does it hold any weight for us?
What is the DoJ's reasoning? It is notoriously hard to look in people's heads. Judges usually word that statement as: it's not the court's task to speculate on the parties state of mind. Having said that ...

It doesn't help California at all. We already have Duncan, which is deeply in the pipeline. In our 9th circuit, there is also Gator (from WA state), also deeply in the pipeline. Both are pending at the Supreme Court. Which of the two cases the court wants to look at is a complex question, see Dvrjon's post above. The likely answer is: neither.

Does it help the people of Colorado? Probably not. It will likely take years to be resolved, perhaps 4-5 years. In particular since the plaintiff here is the federal DoJ, which is likely to completely shift its objectives after the next presidential election (2.5 years from now), the midterms (0.5 years from now), or Trump's next complete change in goals (every few weeks). It is likely the plaintiff (the DoJ) will lose interest. If the case were filed by a steadier party (such as an advocacy org with some staying power, like the CRPA), it might at least survive the duration. But even with that, the two 2A cases pending this year (Wolford and Hermani) are likely to change the landscape enough that the current filing becomes moot. Now, it's always possible to put new wine into old skins, and that may be faster than starting a new case from scratch. Or it may be worse, if the new argument is weighed down by the old stuff.

The fact that the federal DoJ is now making these arguments makes ZERO difference to the courts. Judges are highly trained to look at the reasoning and argument without beholding the person behind it. On the contrary, the current federal government and DoJ has thoroughly ruined the good will it used to have with the courts, and if anything a filing produced by the DoJ will be seen with suspicion.

On the other hand: If the current 2A Supreme Court cases go in our favor, and reform the Bruen reasoning in a fashion that's easier to apply for gun rights, then this case gets a head start to help Colorado. So it could save them a few months.

The questions whether "magazines are arms" and whether "magazine capacity is protected by the 2A" have been litigated ad nauseam in the other cases. Since those are still in process, we don't have a firm answer; in particular not one that "we" (meaning gun rights advocates, as opposed to MAGA adherents) particularly like.

So from a gun rights legal viewpoint, this is a waste of time. A nothing burger. I know that Kostas disagrees on Reddit. But we have to take into account that Kostas' pay check comes from an advocacy organization (the SAF) whose main donors are MAGA adherents, and whose main goal is enriching the Gottlieb family. That colors his public statements.

What does that leave? The only remaining answer is that this is political grandstanding advertising. Look at it this way: Republicans are likely to get a massive shellacking in the midterms. And they're looking at a guaranteed loss in the 2028 presidential election, if current polls and the president's approval rating can be extrapolated. Why? It's not that the MAGA wing of the party is suddenly going to vote for something other than R, or stay home. We've just seen how well they can be energized in the Indiana midterms. It's not that democrats are going to become any less anti-R, or get disillusioned (they may get disenfranchised though). The basic problem Republicans face is the other half of their voters, the moderate / non-Trump / RINO / FUDD / never Trumper voters, who are mostly unhappy with the current state of affairs. To prevent them from sitting out elections or voting for moderate democrats, the party has to throw them some red meat. That's not going to be hot button issues (most of those don't care about ICE, Iran, and transgender rights), but cost of living, Epstein, and tangible real-world things. There are many gun owners and hunters in that demographic (as there also are among moderate/centrist democrats!), so throwing them some purported gun rights fodder that can be used for election advertising to the ill-informed gun owner voters is smart political tactics.

In summary: a publicity stunt.
 
What is the DoJ's reasoning? It is notoriously hard to look in people's heads. Judges usually word that statement as: it's not the court's task to speculate on the parties state of mind. Having said that ...

It doesn't help California at all. We already have Duncan, which is deeply in the pipeline. In our 9th circuit, there is also Gator (from WA state), also deeply in the pipeline. Both are pending at the Supreme Court. Which of the two cases the court wants to look at is a complex question, see Dvrjon's post above. The likely answer is: neither.

Does it help the people of Colorado? Probably not. It will likely take years to be resolved, perhaps 4-5 years. In particular since the plaintiff here is the federal DoJ, which is likely to completely shift its objectives after the next presidential election (2.5 years from now), the midterms (0.5 years from now), or Trump's next complete change in goals (every few weeks). It is likely the plaintiff (the DoJ) will lose interest. If the case were filed by a steadier party (such as an advocacy org with some staying power, like the CRPA), it might at least survive the duration. But even with that, the two 2A cases pending this year (Wolford and Hermani) are likely to change the landscape enough that the current filing becomes moot. Now, it's always possible to put new wine into old skins, and that may be faster than starting a new case from scratch. Or it may be worse, if the new argument is weighed down by the old stuff.

The fact that the federal DoJ is now making these arguments makes ZERO difference to the courts. Judges are highly trained to look at the reasoning and argument without beholding the person behind it. On the contrary, the current federal government and DoJ has thoroughly ruined the good will it used to have with the courts, and if anything a filing produced by the DoJ will be seen with suspicion.

On the other hand: If the current 2A Supreme Court cases go in our favor, and reform the Bruen reasoning in a fashion that's easier to apply for gun rights, then this case gets a head start to help Colorado. So it could save them a few months.

The questions whether "magazines are arms" and whether "magazine capacity is protected by the 2A" have been litigated ad nauseam in the other cases. Since those are still in process, we don't have a firm answer; in particular not one that "we" (meaning gun rights advocates, as opposed to MAGA adherents) particularly like.

So from a gun rights legal viewpoint, this is a waste of time. A nothing burger. I know that Kostas disagrees on Reddit. But we have to take into account that Kostas' pay check comes from an advocacy organization (the SAF) whose main donors are MAGA adherents, and whose main goal is enriching the Gottlieb family. That colors his public statements.

What does that leave? The only remaining answer is that this is political grandstanding advertising. Look at it this way: Republicans are likely to get a massive shellacking in the midterms. And they're looking at a guaranteed loss in the 2028 presidential election, if current polls and the president's approval rating can be extrapolated. Why? It's not that the MAGA wing of the party is suddenly going to vote for something other than R, or stay home. We've just seen how well they can be energized in the Indiana midterms. It's not that democrats are going to become any less anti-R, or get disillusioned (they may get disenfranchised though). The basic problem Republicans face is the other half of their voters, the moderate / non-Trump / RINO / FUDD / never Trumper voters, who are mostly unhappy with the current state of affairs. To prevent them from sitting out elections or voting for moderate democrats, the party has to throw them some red meat. That's not going to be hot button issues (most of those don't care about ICE, Iran, and transgender rights), but cost of living, Epstein, and tangible real-world things. There are many gun owners and hunters in that demographic (as there also are among moderate/centrist democrats!), so throwing them some purported gun rights fodder that can be used for election advertising to the ill-informed gun owner voters is smart political tactics.

In summary: a publicity stunt.

Thank you, answers firmly my question - whether this is pure lip service to trick conservatives into thinking the administration is doing anything meaningful for the pro 2A crowd. Sounds like it does nothing and the second the pendulum potentially swings the other way in 2028, this will be immediately and quietly erased by the future administration.
 
Because the federal government is now formally arguing that standard-capacity magazines are protected arms “in common use,” which directly conflicts with the Ninth Circuit’s reasoning in Duncan. When the DOJ itself tells the Court that lower courts are misapplying Bruen and Heller, it raises institutional conflict of the issue and increases pressure for SCOTUS review.
They haven’t presented an argument; they’ve presented an initial challenge to a state’s law. Their statement doesn’t tell the Court that lower courts are misapplying Bruen. It makes a “General Allegation” regarding Bruen as it should be applied to the Colorado law. An allegation isn’t a fact.
An allegation is defined as a claim of fact not yet proven to be true.

There is no legal conflict because the federal government is not part of the Judiciary Branch and no fact has been proven in this case.
 
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Justice Department Sues Colorado for Unconstitutional Weapons Ban of Standard-Capacity Firearms Magazines

I think this dramatically increases the chances of SCOTUS taking Duncan v. Bonta.

I think things are looking much better than they did a year ago. I just wish the 3rd circuit would release their en banc decision in the NJ AW case. That would be the crown jewel if it goes our way. NJ would either accept their AW ban’s defeat, or their only other option is to appeal to the scotus. Either way, there’s a true and solid circuit split.
 
Arguments are over for this term, so SCOTUS will have to kill or carry over Duncan and Gator’s. As noted before, denying them creates an unequal application as the Washington statute (Gator’s) contains a grandfather clause for retention of owned magazines and CA’s demands dispossession of the property. To avoid that, they’ll have to carry both over until next term. First argument day is 5 Oct.
 
I'm completely disgusted by everything. Trump needs to step this up, Tweet to the SC to take these gun cases, whatever it takes but I feel nothing happens and California gets away with anything. Just a bit over a year from now, there will be no gun sold or PPT'd in california from the microstamp. I can't imagine if that takes years to over turn, every gun shop will be gone and yet no one is talking about it.
 
Arguments are over for this term, so SCOTUS will have to kill or carry over Duncan and Gator’s. As noted before, denying them creates an unequal application as the Washington statute (Gator’s) contains a grandfather clause for retention of owned magazines and CA’s demands dispossession of the property. To avoid that, they’ll have to carry both over until next term. First argument day is 5 Oct.
So roberts busted out the shorts for summer break? suns out guns out :cool:
 
I'm completely disgusted by everything. Trump needs to step this up, Tweet to the SC to take these gun cases, whatever it takes but I feel nothing happens and California gets away with anything. Just a bit over a year from now, there will be no gun sold or PPT'd in california from the microstamp. I can't imagine if that takes years to over turn, every gun shop will be gone and yet no one is talking about it.
If you bore down through the USDOJ News Release, you’ll find:
If you believe your right to keep and bear arms is being infringed, please submit a complaint through their Civil Rights Second Amendment page.
On that page, you’ll find an invitation to submit a claim of wrong-doing directly to the USDOJ. That looks like this:

IMG_0593.webp

Perhaps it’s time to run a Call to Action through this system and inundate USDOJ with a request they weigh in on Duncan as an Amicus.
 
Man reading through this thread really makes me pessimistic and feel like our system is broken beyond repair. The level of politicking at the highest court which is supposed to be based on principles is really disheartening
 
I'm completely disgusted by everything. Trump needs to step this up, Tweet to the SC to take these gun cases, whatever it takes but I feel nothing happens and California gets away with anything. Just a bit over a year from now, there will be no gun sold or PPT'd in california from the microstamp. I can't imagine if that takes years to over turn, every gun shop will be gone and yet no one is talking about it.

Huh? I thought the microstamping requirement was just for the sale of new handguns not PPT and not beyond handguns?
 
Huh? I thought the microstamping requirement was just for the sale of new handguns not PPT and not beyond handguns?
Just like the new 3 in 30 rule, they added in PPT as well.. I heard the new microstamp law will stop PPT as well, you can only sell out of state or give it up if you want to get rid of guns in the future. Yes its not for rifles, but how many shops will stay open based on just rifle sales?
 
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