Question Good gun for carpal tunnel or hand pains

[GoldensRule]

Jesus... Someone should show that article to all the police and military agencies. Think of all the tax payer money that could be saved if they all switched over to the superior .22LR. Apparently, ballistics has not progressed at all since 1979 when that article was written. Seriously, basing your choice of self-defense pistol ammo off of that article is gross negligence.

.22 pistols are super fun to shoot. Leave it at that.

Discounting the logic because the .22 is not what police and military use is at best myopic and at worst a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning. Police and infantry needs are are completely different than what a woman with a physical disability needs for home defense.

Also, please elaborate about all of the significant ballistic changes that have been made to the 9x19mm Parabellum round since 1979 as well as changes to the .22LR that in any way degrade the ability of the .22LR to kill a human being? That is what we are talking about, home defense and the ability to kill an assailant without compromising the shooter's physical disability or collaterally injuring other family members in the home due to a round passing through a body, through drywall and striking an innocent.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Discounting the logic because the .22 is not what police and military use is at best myopic and at worst a logical fallacy known as circular reasoning. Police and infantry needs are are completely different than what a woman with a physical disability needs for home defense.

Also, please elaborate about all of the significant ballistic changes that have been made to the 9x19mm Parabellum round since 1979 as well as changes to the .22LR that in any way degrade the ability of the .22LR to kill a human being? That is what we are talking about, home defense and the ability to kill an assailant without compromising the shooter's physical disability or collaterally injuring other family members in the home due to a round passing through a body, through drywall and striking an innocent.

Read through the FBI report from 2014 on 9mm as a service weapon. Due to modern improvements in bullet and powder, all of which have happened post 1980, the 9mm rivals larger calibers for both penetration and wound cavity. 22lr isn't even in the conversation. That random article isn't data and even if there is some truth to it they are talking about the context of assassination and not a defensive situation. As can be seen in the video posted above, someone can take a full clip center mass and still come at you, even with larger calibers.

FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division | Soldier Systems Daily

This has been making its way around the Internet and we thought it was worth sharing. May 6, 2014 FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA Executive ...

soldiersystems.net

 

[socalgunowner909]

You guys.... This is not an ammo debate. The gentleman was asking a very specific question. I understand the back and forth but....

Take two of these and relax...

22 is good and will kill. Does it have the same knock down power no. But in the right hands can be very reliable.

 

[TheAverageShooter]

I said it, others have said in this thread, but I will say it again - a handgun is a very poor choice for someone with carpal tunnel - at best it is going to be very uncomfortable to hold/shoot.

But a few had very good suggestions to have her hold and test a few options to see what works best for her.

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

1911 single stack. Full size.

22lr pistol works, but its meh..

My hands shake alot from firing alot of stuff during service. And possibly from ptsd. No problem handling long guns.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Cartridge absolutely matters and it's downright irresponsible to tell people with no experience that 22lr is a good defensive round. It would be better to use a Taser or bear spray

 

[DB>)>]

watch at your own risk

Hmmm, that makes the point about shot placement rather well. Doesn't look like larger calibers are 100% reliable to achieve a necessary critical stop, does it? Training should have included mag swap after a mag dump?

There's plenty of evidence that a large majority of GSWs are survivable, regardless of caliber. A "determined" attacker or one under the influence or psychotic won't be stopped or even slowed down much by anything short of a large rifle round or a shotgun of buckshot or slug. Even those are not 100%, again dependent on shot placement. Pro tip - COM hits can take time to neutralize the threat.

Choose ammo carefully. Different rounds can have radically different terminal effects within the same caliber, which can enhance or diminish the effectiveness of good shot placement.

Sure, a .22lr is not a first choice for defense, but for someone with physical limitations or unable to manipulate a hard to rack slide, it's far superior to nothing. And not everyone is going to set up their domicile like a shoot house and wear body armor and NVG to bed...

 

[Deleted member 16735]

The other option isn't "nothing", the other options like a Taser or pepper spray are going to be more effective and accessible. Not to mention you can use them in a broader range of circumstances because they aren't deadly force. In order to use a firearm you have a much higher burden of proving you were in imminent danger.

 

[sjb323]

There is so much bad advice in this thread, it's comical. "Survivability" and "the ability to kill" is not even a factor when selecting ammo for protection. If you are shooting someone with the intent that they do not survive the encounter, you'll have a great time defending your actions in court. The idea is STOP the threat, and there are numerous factors involved in this: effectiveness of the projectile, mental state of the dude getting shot, shot placement, etc. What you are trying to do is improve your odds with the factors that are within your control, ex: calibre of the gun you carry. Sure, you can probably stop a bear with proper shot placement, but why not increase your odds by choosing a superior caliber? Anyone who is telling you that you can overcome the disadvantages of smaller caliber pistol round with better shot placement -- even though it may be true -- has no real world experience. Find advice elsewhere.

That said, if God came down from heaven and told me that it's a Ruger Mark IV or nothing, I would take the Mark IV. Fortunately, that's not the case here.

 

[Shanekeoro]

Kriss Vector 9mm!!!

 

[DB>)>]

Israeli air marshalls used .22lr handguns effecively, although they switched up to 9mm. IDF used supressed 10/22's, supposedly because they would be "less lethat" against rioters, but IIRC they stopped due to them being more lethal than expected...

Since I'm pretty sure none of us would volunteer to go downrange and hold a target while someone is shooting .22lr, let's stop pretending that it's a weak wimpy useless round. MrMister already provided all the proof needed to show a 9mm mag dump isn't a guaranteed stopper...


OP has some good sugestions for the use case presented, which CLEARLY involves significant physical limitations that have influenced the suggestions for some, and seemingly been ignored by others.


MrMister (and sbj323) do make VERY VERY good points in regards to liability when it comes to use of lethal force - it's one thing to shoot a paper zombie target, but shooting another human being carries a LOT of consequences. Gun ownership might not be the right answer for everyone? I've run across people who jumped straight to a firearm as "the answer", but who were in no way prepared for the responsibilities of gun ownership (it's not a "magic bullet", pardon the pun).

IF derfense is the primary consideration as opposed to a recreational day at the range, there are some pepperball guns coming to market that might be worth a look. There are options, the most important thing is to be prepared to defend if needed, have a plan to retreat if possible. Harden the "home" against potential bad guys/gals - there are lots of ways to make yourself and your place less inviting to criminals that won't cost much or take much effort.

 

[GoldensRule]

Read through the FBI report from 2014 on 9mm as a service weapon. Due to modern improvements in bullet and powder, all of which have happened post 1980, the 9mm rivals larger calibers for both penetration and wound cavity. 22lr isn't even in the conversation. That random article isn't data and even if there is some truth to it they are talking about the context of assassination and not a defensive situation. As can be seen in the video posted above, someone can take a full clip center mass and still come at you, even with larger calibers.

FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division | Soldier Systems Daily

This has been making its way around the Internet and we thought it was worth sharing. May 6, 2014 FBI Training Division: FBI Academy, Quantico, VA Executive ...

soldiersystems.net

No argument from me that a 9mm is more powerful than a .22lr. A .45 is more powerful than a 9mm, a 10mm is more powerful than a .45 and .50 is more powerful than a 10mm and so on.

However, the advantages of a .22lr for a woman with a painful disability that directly impacts her ability to become proficient with a 9mm or larger weapon is of paramount concern. She will be able to practice with a .22lr without painful repercussions. Additionally, a .22 with it's much lighter recoil is more easily reset on the target after firing, allowing one to rapidly empty the magazine while achieving excellent accuracy.

As the vast majority of home defense situations do not involve intruders wearing body armor or ballistic helmets, someone who has practiced making head shots with a .22lr, shouldn't need more than one shot to put down an assailant at seven meters but, my training and experience taught me to ALWAYS empty the magazine and reload immediately.

I believe you said you have a personal bias against .22lr. If you actually own a .22 pistol, I would urge you to try firing it at between 5 - 7 meters (a reasonable distance for a home defense encounter) at a block of FBI standard size, homemade ballistic gelatin (16x6x6) and see how the .22lr rips it up without exiting the block. Of course commercial ordnance gelatin would be even better but, I'm frugal.

Here's a recipe for making the gelatin: https://www.thearmorylife.com/diy-ballistic-gelatin/

 

[socalgunowner909]

Some people would think we are all arguing about this topic. But in reality i think we are all very passionate about this just want to help. Sure we all have our preferences and abilities. The main thing is we are here to help and inform. Shoutout to all the people here trying to inform and help. (which is everyone)

 

[GoldensRule]

Some people would think we are all arguing about this topic. But in reality i think we are all very passionate about this just want to help. Sure we all have our preferences and abilities. The main thing is we are here to help and inform. Shoutout to all the people here trying to inform and help. (which is everyone)

It's a discussion among people who are interested in learning from each other, not an argument. At least that's how I see it. Some people are more polite than others but, big deal.

 

[GoldensRule]

yeah pistol is going to be inherently bad for carpel tunnel. The right fit would be PCC, IMHO its going to be less pressure on locking her wrists.

Do they make a biometric gun safe that can fit in a night table drawer and accommodate a PCC with a mag inserted? Certainly wouldn't want to leave something like that unsecured, even if you don't have a family.

 

[ikeo1]

Do they make a biometric gun safe that can fit in a night table drawer and accommodate a PCC with a mag inserted? Certainly wouldn't want to leave something like that unsecured, even if you don't have a family.

There are biometric safes for PCC that wouldn’t fit in a nightstand but it doesn’t need to. Night stand would assume you could use a regular pistol. I think the user would have to adapt to their circumstances. It is bigger, but depending how bad the carpal tunnel is, using a firearm could be a safety issue for the people inside the home and may aggravate the issue when she practices and cause more damage to her wrist.

 

[sjb323]

Some people would think we are all arguing about this topic. But in reality i think we are all very passionate about this just want to help. Sure we all have our preferences and abilities. The main thing is we are here to help and inform. Shoutout to all the people here trying to inform and help. (which is everyone)

Absolutely true, and I'm starting to sound like a crotchety old man here. Apologies... However, there truly is a lot of misinformation going on here by people who have a surface level understanding of things -- be it ballistics, criminal liability, ect. Without listing my own resume, I'm just another guy on an Internet forum, so no matter who's advice you take, make sure you back it with your own research from a known and trust source.

With that said...

As the vast majority of home defense situations do not involve intruders wearing body armor or ballistic helmets, someone who has practiced making head shots with a .22lr, shouldn't need more than one shot to put down an assailant at seven meters but, my training and experience taught me to ALWAYS empty the magazine and reload immediately.

A lot of contradicting advice here. I would love to have a talk with the guy that trains someone to ALWAYS mag dump and reload immediately. When you pull the trigger, you are accountable for every round that goes downrange. That means that if the threat presents itself and the first shot stops that threat, then you are done shooting. Period. If you continue to "mag dump" after the threat is no longer a threat -- regardless of what your training has taught you -- then you will hang. Horrible advice to give to someone just starting out. You also stated in the same sentence that you shouldn't need more than one shot to put down an assailant, so I'm not sure what point is trying to be make here.

I believe you said you have a personal bias against .22lr. If you actually own a .22 pistol, I would urge you to try firing it at between 5 - 7 meters (a reasonable distance for a home defense encounter) at a block of FBI standard size, homemade ballistic gelatin (16x6x6) and see how the .22lr rips it up without exiting the block. Of course commercial ordnance gelatin would be even better but, I'm frugal.

Here's a recipe for making the gelatin: https://www.thearmorylife.com/diy-ballistic-gelatin/

I probably own over a dozen .22s and they are great! I do have a bias against .22LR for self defense. "Ripping up" a block of ballistic gelatin as the sole factor of what makes a good self defense round shows a lack of understanding. There are other factors such as temporary and permanent wound cavity that can have a much bigger effect on stopping the bad guy than just how far a round penetrates into something that isn't even a human. How well do you think that 40 grain .22 round can penetrate through certain bones and still maintain its velocity?

Again, I'm not trying to be a here, but it's hard not to respond to the amount of misinformation that's circulating in this thread, especially when a new shooter is looking for advice.

Israeli air marshalls used .22lr handguns effecively, although they switched up to 9mm. IDF used supressed 10/22's, supposedly because they would be "less lethat" against rioters, but IIRC they stopped due to them being more lethal than expected...

The fact that the IDF shot people with .22s as a means of less-lethal should raise an eyebrow in itself. I believe they still carry on an empty chamber as well...

 

[GoldensRule]

There are biometric safes for PCC that wouldn’t fit in a nightstand but it doesn’t need to. Night stand would assume you could use a regular pistol. I think the user would have to adapt to their circumstances. It is bigger, but depending how bad the carpal tunnel is, using a firearm could be a safety issue for the people inside the home and may aggravate the issue when she practices and cause more damage to her wrist.

I'm thinking of my wife and her disdain for anything such as a safe that is visible in her "domain". Also thinking about all the times I've had to get up out of bed and investigate strange noises in the house in the middle of the night and her preference for wanting her weapon right at the bedside.

 

[ikeo1]

I'm thinking of my wife and her disdain for anything such as a safe that is visible in her "domain". Also thinking about all the times I've had to get up out of bed and investigate strange noises in the house in the middle of the night and her preference for wanting her weapon right at the bedside.

Up to her, given the disability, whatever works for her situation. A 22lr can work, no problem with that. If this was the case, I would have her try both and have her make the decision rather than have us make the decision for her.

Always a fun date to go to the range and try different firearms. It doesn't matter to me what caliber, its which one she likes to practice with. Theres a reason assassinations are mainly with 22's, but whatever she can get good at is what matters, IMO

 

[DB>)>]

If size is an issue, maybe take a look at the Sub2K Gen3 with a dot sight - folds pretty compact, and fairly quick to deploy, the fin is annoying, but less so than an AR IMO. With a couple MCarbo upgrades, my Gen2 has very low recoil. Not quite a "nightstand gun", but it's only about 16" when folded, 10mm, 9mm, and 5.7x28 caliber options available. Stow in a smaller bag with a lock when needed, behind headboard or under bed maybe?



And the point of the IDF using suppressed 10/22s was to reduce fatalities, but my understanding is that they found fatalites were a lot higher than expected, quite possibly due to a ".22lr is a lightweight round" mindset, similar to the ".223 will rip your head or limbs off" BS about AR's from one over zealous (Army? Marines?) "report"...