In vehicle safe legality?

[Gryff]

but PC Sec. 16850 says, “[t]he term ‘locked container’ does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle”). But a utility compartment with a factory lock is easy to breach, while a console vault is not (hence my comment about the spirit of the law being satisfied with a console vault being used as a locked container despite the fact that it doesn’t have it’s own walls and floor like other containers would).

I think the question about that caveat is why is the glove box not acceptable. My thought is that a stored there IS accessible to the driver with somewhat minimal effort (rather than being about making it difficult to steal the gun). If that is the interpretation, then a console safe probably isn't going to pass the sniff test. This assumes that the user doesn't have a CCW.

For a CCW holder, I would think that it is fully legal while they are in the car. If they leave the car, then it becomes an issue of whether the gun is loaded or unloaded, since I don't believe it is legal to store a loaded gun in a car when you are not present.

 

[Dvrjon]

Working in a gun store for almost 4 years and having numerous conversations with our former LAPD buddy who currently teaches CCW classes for LA and Ventura county, the recommendation has always been - if you dont have a CCW - it must be locked AND in the trunk (or in a locking trunk), OR it must be locked and as far away from the driver as possible, i.e. passenger side 2nd row of a crew cab pickup

There is nothing in the Penal Code to support the bolded statement. It’s safe, it’s prudent, but it isn’t required by statute.

 

[shermanatortank]

I heard that bolting a small lockbox to the car itsself could classify it as a 'utility compartment'. Is this true?

 

[Dvrjon]

For a CCW holder, I would think that it is fully legal while they are in the car. If they leave the car, then it becomes an issue of whether the gun is loaded or unloaded, since I don't believe it is legal to store a loaded gun in a car when you are not present.

CA PEN 25140 provides for storage of a firearm in an unattended vehicle. The bill was intended to bring law enforcement personnel under the same controls as the rest of the populace. (Between 2010 and 2016, over 900 firearms had been lost by local police in the Bay Area and state and federal law enforcement agents across the state). When the bill was being debated, the author (Sen Hill) was provided with a number of suggestions to strengthen it. Chief among these was to allow the use of aftermarket security containers, either removable or permanently affixed, within the vehicle to avoid the ambiguity caused by the language barring use of the “utility compartment” (center console). This resulted in the added bolded language, below. But the statute states the, “Locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed…”. That’s why some of these inserts might not provide the cover needed. Again, there's no case law on this.

25140. (a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.

(The italicized language which followed was added in a subsequent year to accommodate pickup trucks (no trunks) but authorizing toolboxes or utility boxes in the bed. Source.)

A second suggestion to Sen Hill was to state that the firearm did not have to be unloaded prior to placement in the container. The argument submitted was based on the increased potential for accidental discharges during loading/unloading, the potential for passers-by to see the action and report a “man with a gun” and to enhance LEO response to emergencies by not having to reload before responding. The final bill and law remained silent on this issue and doesn't require unloading. So, the guns can be stored (not transported) while loaded. Loaded transport without a CCW is still prohibited.

 

[Dvrjon]

I heard that bolting a small lockbox to the car itsself could classify it as a 'utility compartment'. Is this true?

No. See above and CA PEN 25140.

 

[Michael the Beloved]

CA PEN 25140 provides for storage of a firearm in an unattended vehicle. The bill was intended to bring law enforcement personnel under the same controls as the rest of the populace. (Between 2010 and 2016, over 900 firearms had been lost by local police in the Bay Area and state and federal law enforcement agents across the state). When the bill was being debated, the author (Sen Hill) was provided with a number of suggestions to strengthen it. Chief among these was to allow the use of aftermarket security containers, either removable or permanently affixed, within the vehicle to avoid the ambiguity caused by the language barring use of the “utility compartment” (center console). This resulted in the added bolded language, below. But the statute states the, “Locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed…”. That’s why some of these inserts might not provide the cover needed. Again, there's no case law on this.

(The italicized language which followed was added in a subsequent year to accommodate pickup trucks (no trunks) but authorizing toolboxes or utility boxes in the bed. Source.)

A second suggestion to Sen Hill was to state that the firearm did not have to be unloaded prior to placement in the container. The argument submitted was based on the increased potential for accidental discharges during loading/unloading, the potential for passers-by to see the action and report a “man with a gun” and to enhance LEO response to emergencies by not having to reload before responding. The final bill and law remained silent on this issue and doesn't require unloading. So, the guns can be stored (not transported) while loaded. Loaded transport without a CCW is still prohibited.

Great analysis & use of the legislative history. Especially the part that a CCW holder does not need to store it unloaded at a sensitive location. Thus one can bolt a Fort Knox safe to the trunk of their car, and via P.C 26230(c), when parked at a sensitive location parking lot (like a school, post office, restaurant serving alcohol)…one can remove their CCW permitted gun to deposit their loaded gun into this trunk bolted safe. Without a permit, the gun must be unloaded in the safe…at all times.

26230(C)3 permits a CCW holder to store the gun in the lockbox in the trunk…or a locked box in any other part of the vehicle…out of plain sight. So if you have a console vault in the center console, or a lockbox underneath a seat (out of plain sight), you are protected.

 

[Jon F]

My CCW instructor was very clear that while traveling with a loaded handgun that is not in an approved storage container and in the passenger compartment, it had to be on your person.

Edit: Found it. CA PC 26230 (c) (3) (f &g)

 

[Dvrjon]

Great analysis & use of the legislative history. Especially the part that a CCW holder does not need to store it unloaded at a sensitive location. Thus one can bolt a Fort Knox safe to the trunk of their car, and via P.C 26230(c), when parked at a sensitive location parking lot (like a school, post office, restaurant serving alcohol)…one can remove their CCW permitted gun to deposit their loaded gun into this trunk bolted safe. Without a permit, the gun must be unloaded in the safe…at all times.

26230(C)3 permits a CCW holder to store the gun in the lockbox in the trunk…or a locked box in any other part of the vehicle…out of plain sight. So if you have a console vault in the center console, or a lockbox underneath a seat (out of plain sight), you are protected.

The storage code CA PEN 25140 concerns storage in general locations when the vehicle is unattended (as defined). But, SB2 came after this law and emphasizes specific conditions for specific areas. In that, it’s important to check the additional prohibitions for those areas. Schools include CA Pen 626.9; 30310, etc.

 

[Hit Factor]

My CCW instructor was very clear that while traveling with a loaded handgun that is not in an approved storage container and in the passenger compartment, it had to be on your person.

Did your CCW instructor provide any sort of citation for this claim?

 

[Jon F]

He did, I just can’t remember it.

Edit: Found it. CA PC 26230 (c) (3) (f &g)

 

[Dvrjon]

My CCW instructor was very clear that while traveling with a loaded handgun that is not in an approved storage container and in the passenger compartment, it had to be on your person.

What, then, is the point of the CCW? Is there a potential that there is a misunderstanding?

What statute did your instructor cite to support this, because the Penal Code has an alternative position.

CA Pen 25400

25400. ​

(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when the person does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle that is under the person’s control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon the person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which the person is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.

And then:

25655. ​

Section 25400 does not apply to, or affect, the carrying of a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person by a person who is authorized to carry that weapon in a concealed manner pursuant to Chapter 4 (commencing with Section 26150).

So, Section 25400(a) prohibits concealment anywhere within the vehicle and (b) prohibits concealment on the body at any time.

Section 25655 exempts CCW holders from both of those (also (c)) and does not mandate the gun be on the person while in the car.

No storage case needed.

 

[Jon F]

What, then, is the point of the CCW? Is there a potential that there is a misunderstanding?

What statute did your instructor cite to support this, because the Penal Code has an alternative position.

CA Pen 25400

And then:

So, Section 25400(a) prohibits concealment anywhere within the vehicle and (b) prohibits concealment on the body at any time.

Section 25655 exempts CCW holders from both of those (also (c)) and does not mandate the gun be on the person while in the car.

No storage case needed.

Found it. CA PC 26230 (c) (3) (f &g)

The changes were made January 2024 as part of SB2. It’s literally the last 2 paragraphs of the law.

It is being interpreted as requiring the loaded gun be on your person in some way such as a holster, a pocket or in a bag or container which you are wearing. Glove boxes, center consoles and dash mounted holsters are no longer allowed. The exception is if it is in an approved storage container like a Vaultek.

(f) Except in the places specified in paragraph (14) of subdivision (a), a licensee shall not be in violation of this section while they are traveling along a public right-of-way that touches or crosses any of the premises identified in subdivision (a) if the concealed firearm is carried on their person in accordance with the provisions of this act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law. Nothing in this section allows a person to loiter or remain in a place longer than necessary to complete their travel.

(g) Nothing in this section shall prohibit the carrying of a firearm where it is otherwise expressly authorized by law.

2025 California Code :: Penal Code - PEN :: PART 6 - CONTROL OF DEADLY WEAPONS :: TITLE 4 - FIREARMS :: DIVISION 5 - CARRYING FIREARMS :: CHAPTER 4 - License to Carry A Pistol, Revolver, or Other Firearm Capable of Being Concealed Upon the Person ::

Cal. PEN Code § 26230 - 26230. (a) A person granted a license to carry a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person pursuant to Section 26150, 26155, or 26170 shall not carry a firearm on or

law.justia.com

 

[terriblehurbst]

There is nothing in the Penal Code to support the bolded statement. It’s safe, it’s prudent, but it isn’t required by statute.

I agree with you.. I don't know of any penal code that says it MUST be as far away from the driver as possible, but i guess i should have clarified that this was more of a "whats your average traffic cop looking for" type of recommendation from my trainer buddy to avoid potential issues, rather than a statutory mandate

 

[Hit Factor]

What, then, is the point of the CCW? Is there a potential that there is a misunderstanding?

What statute did your instructor cite to support this, because the Penal Code has an alternative position.

CA Pen 25400

And then:

So, Section 25400(a) prohibits concealment anywhere within the vehicle and (b) prohibits concealment on the body at any time.

Section 25655 exempts CCW holders from both of those (also (c)) and does not mandate the gun be on the person while in the car.

No storage case needed.

I agree. And if someone without a CCW permit transports a gun in a backpack in the backseat of their car, they could be arrested for carrying a concealed weapon. This CCW instructor seems to be saying that if a CCW permit holder transports a gun in a backpack in the backseat of their car, they could also be arrested for carrying a concealed weapon — even though their CCW permit allows them to legally carry that very same weapon concealed. I would love to hear this instructor’s justification for that position.

 

[Hit Factor]

I agree with you.. I don't know of any penal code that says it MUST be as far away from the driver as possible, but i guess i should have clarified that this was more of a "whats your average traffic cop looking for" type of recommendation from my trainer buddy to avoid potential issues, rather than a statutory mandate

Tell your buddy that if a police officer ever tells him that he is being arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, he should remind the officer that that is exactly what his CCW permit allows him to do.

 

[Dvrjon]

I agree with you.. I don't know of any penal code that says it MUST be as far away from the driver as possible, but i guess i should have clarified that this was more of a "whats your average traffic cop looking for" type of recommendation from my trainer buddy to avoid potential issues, rather than a statutory mandate

So, your trainer buddy knows that it isn’t illegal for a non-CCW holder to transport a firearm unloaded within a locked, secure container not the utility or glove compartment, but is worried about what a “traffic cop is looking for”. The traffic cop is looking for illegalities. There are none. It isn’t illegal. Your trainer is simply covering his butt so if someone screws up he can point to training materials where he advised putting the gun as far away from the driver as possible. It is legal even if it is sitting on your lap in plain sight.

The gun is locked in a secure container. CA PEN 25610(a).

Even the CA AG recognizes this.

 

[treelogger]

And if someone without a CCW permit transports a gun in a backpack in the backseat of their car, they could be arrested for carrying a concealed weapon.

In the old days, even the typical cloth backpack would legally become a "locked container" with a small padlock through the zipper. I would not recommend that, but it used to meet the definition of "locked container". Today, the legal definition of "locked container" is found in the CCR regulations, and there is a roster of "firearm safety devices". I no longer know whether a zippered cloth container meets that definition or not. See PC 26230(b) and 23650...

This CCW instructor seems to be saying that if a CCW permit holder transports a gun in a backpack in the backseat of their car, they could also be arrested for carrying a concealed weapon — even though their CCW permit allows them to legally carry that very same weapon concealed. I would love to hear this instructor’s justification for that position.

See above: SB2 has defined "concealed" as "on the person" or "in a locked container" in PC 26230, for the purpose of being on a public road.

 

[NorCalBusa]

My CCW instructor was very clear that while traveling with a loaded handgun that is not in an approved storage container and in the passenger compartment, it had to be on your person.

CCW instructors are like cops- they know what they know and some stuff is incorrect. As with anything important, cross check for a more clear decision.

 

[terriblehurbst]

So, your trainer buddy knows that it isn’t illegal for a non-CCW holder to transport a firearm unloaded within a locked, secure container not the utility or glove compartment, but is worried about what a “traffic cop is looking for”. The traffic cop is looking for illegalities. There are none. It isn’t illegal. Your trainer is simply covering his butt so if someone screws up he can point to training materials where he advised putting the gun as far away from the driver as possible. It is legal even if it is sitting on your lap in plain sight.

The gun is locked in a secure container. CA PEN 25610(a).

Even the CA AG recognizes this.

one of the big issues that I see with CA gun laws in general, is that they are so dense, so complicated, and so ever-changing, on top of all the other everyday statutes that a cop has to pay attention to, that I would bet a lot of money that most cops don't even know all the gun laws, and will cite, detain, or arrest you now, and then ask questions later. if anything looks even remotely unbecoming to a cop, especially if they've already pulled you over for something else, and especially if you try to argue with them about anything.. if they want to ruin your day, they will use their own ignorant definition of "improper storage" to justify citing, detaining, or arresting you

i think my buddy's recommendation is defintely a CYA type of recommendation.. for him, for his students, for a cop who might already be on edge and looking for any little thing..

my trainer buddy is former LAPD, so hes got a pretty good understanding of how cops operate and think, and how that meshes with the letter of the law.. its not always pretty or correct, but it is the reality of the situation, unfortunately. i think what you said about it being "safe and prudent" is spot on here

Tell your buddy that if a police officer ever tells him that he is being arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, he should remind the officer that that is exactly what his CCW permit allows him to do.

I stated clearly in my original comment.. this recommendation was specifically for non-CCW holders

 

[terriblehurbst]

Working in a gun store for almost 4 years and having numerous conversations with our former LAPD buddy who currently teaches CCW classes for LA and Ventura county, the recommendation has always been - if you dont have a CCW - it must be locked AND in the trunk (or in a locking trunk), OR it must be locked and as far away from the driver as possible, i.e. passenger side 2nd row of a crew cab pickup