In vehicle safe legality?

[cheapie408]

So that said, if I don't have a CCW and I'm in my truck that has no trunk, then just store the firearm unloaded and magazine (loaded) in a lock container similar to the vaultek and toss it in under the back seat is good?

This is not daily but say I'm going to the range or going fishing.

 

[terriblehurbst]

So that said, if I don't have a CCW and I'm in my truck that has no trunk, then just store the firearm unloaded and magazine (loaded) in a lock container similar to the vaultek and toss it in under the back seat is good?

This is not daily but say I'm going to the range or going fishing.

That would be the safest way to go about it in my opinion

 

[ar15robert]

Probable cause isn't too hard these days. People just give them great reasons. Searching immediate proximity of the driver happens too often.

Yup if a cop wants to search they are gonna search and will use anything they can for probable cause.

 

[cheapie408]

On my truck, I have an electric retractable bedcover. It's secure and lock and I would describe it as, as good as if better than a trunk.

The law say unloaded in the trunk, so technically, I can toss the firearms in my range bag and transport in the locked and cover truck bed and good to go right?

 

[xAngelitohh]

So that said, if I don't have a CCW and I'm in my truck that has no trunk, then just store the firearm unloaded and magazine (loaded) in a lock container similar to the vaultek and toss it in under the back seat is good?

This is not daily but say I'm going to the range or going fishing.

My opinion because I have looked at this a bit on videos and other forums is that not matter what you do it is really going to come down to the cop. While we may consider a firearm unloaded if there is no bullet in the chamber and no mag inserted a cop may not feel the same way. We are always at the mercy of the cops interpretation of the law at that moment. If you want to avoid any legal trouble in my opinion it is to not carry your firearm at all unless going to and from the range (unless you have a CCW of course). Now with that said if you need to transport it probably better to have the mag unloaded as a cop will have a much harder time presenting a case that you intended to use it if all components are separate from each other.

Also going back to the original question about the safe in the center console. CA Gun Law made a great video talking about it but I also believe it is the safest option. As a vaultek secured with a cable lock is a lot easier to cut than getting into a center console safe that's pad locked and key locked. It just comes down to are you more worried about the gun possibly being stolen if your car is broken into or a cop who searches your car finding it there?

 

[cheapie408]

Also going back to the original question about the safe in the center console. CA Gun Law made a great video talking about it but I also believe it is the safest option. As a vaultek secured with a cable lock is a lot easier to cut than getting into a center console safe that's pad locked and key locked. It just comes down to are you more worried about the gun possibly being stolen if your car is broken into or a cop who searches your car finding it there?

I seriously can't decide which one is a greater threat. Logic tells me if I lose a firearm, it'll be a boatload of reports and inconvenient, if I get tagged by some stupid cop for me trying to do something by the insanely convoluted law and I get into legal trouble, it'll be life changing.

There is a serious problem with the law.

 

[xAngelitohh]

I seriously can't decide which one is a greater threat. Logic tells me if I lose a firearm, it'll be a boatload of reports and inconvenient, if I get tagged by some stupid cop for me trying to do something by the insanely convoluted law and I get into legal trouble, it'll be life changing.

There is a serious problem with the law.

Serious problem with California. But that’s the point they don’t want you to be armed.

 

[canadagoose]

If you have a CCW, then yes.
If you don’t have a CCW, then probably yes.

It would likely satisfy the spirit of the law, but not necessarily the letter of the law (since PC Sec. 25610 permits transportation if “[t]he firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle,” but PC Sec. 16850 says, “[t]he term ‘locked container’ does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle”). But a utility compartment with a factory lock is easy to breach, while a console vault is not (hence my comment about the spirit of the law being satisfied with a console vault being used as a locked container despite the fact that it doesn’t have it’s own walls and floor like other containers would).

For what it’s worth, I use a Console Vault regularly for gun storage, but I have a CCW. And most of the LEOs I shoot with at matches use Console Vaults for the same purpose.

Looking at PC 26230 covering place a CCW cannot carry, 26230(c,d,e) say...

(c) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), except under paragraph (21) or (28) of subdivision (a), a licensee prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm into the parking area of a prohibited location specified in subdivision (a) shall be allowed to:

(1) Transport a concealed firearm or ammunition within a vehicle into or out of the parking area so long as the firearm is locked in a lock box.

(2) Store ammunition or a firearm within a locked lock box and out of plain view within the vehicle in the parking area. Nothing in this paragraph is intended to preempt local laws placing more restrictive requirements upon the storage of firearms in vehicles.

(3) Transport a concealed firearm in the immediate area surrounding their vehicle within a prohibited parking lot area only for the limited purpose of storing or retrieving a firearm within a locked lock box in the vehicle’s trunk or other place inside the vehicle that is out of plain view.

(d) For purposes of subdivision (c), a lock box is an item as defined in subdivision (y) of Section 4082 of, and subdivision (b) of Section 4094 of, Title 11 of the California Code of Regulations, which is a firearm safety device, as defined in Section 16540, and that is listed on the Department’s Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale pursuant to Sections 23650 and 23655.

(e) For purposes of subdivisions (b) and (c), a lock box that was listed on the Department’s Roster of Firearm Safety Devices Certified for Sale at the time it was purchased by the licensee shall be deemed to be a compliant lock box.

Those last two indicate that only those that are specifically listed on the roster of safety devices are compliant, which rules out lots of options.

If I'm reading things correctly for CCW storage in an unattended vehicle at a sensitive place, it can be loaded firearm in a lock box that's on the roster.

Without a CCW, it has to be unloaded, but it seems the definition of the lock box is looser and it doesn't have to be on the roster.

 

[H. Bowman]

A locked container inside a utility compartment is fine.

 

[Dvrjon]

Apologies in advance for the length….

Looking at PC 26230 covering place a CCW cannot carry, 26230(c,d,e) say...[…]
Those last two indicate that only those that are specifically listed on the roster of safety devices are compliant, which rules out lots of options.
If I'm reading things correctly for CCW storage in an unattended vehicle at a sensitive place, it can be loaded firearm in a lock box that's on the roster.
Without a CCW, it has to be unloaded, but it seems the definition of the lock box is looser and it doesn't have to be on the roster.

Prior to SB 2, both transportation and storage used the defined term, secure “locked container”.

CA PEN 16850.​

As used in this part, “locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term “locked container” does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

But that excluded the use of the center console. Section 25140 (storage) provided guidance for storage which, for the first time, authorized after-market firearm containers for use if they were permanently attached and out of sight. While this allows the use of console safes and other devices, there is still some concern that, if the container is not “fully enclosed” as some gun vaults are not, they don’t qualify. It seems vague and ambiguous enough to not be an issue. But, it’s your decision.

Section 25140 was later amended to include toolboxes and utility boxes to accommodate trucks.

CA PEN 25140.​

(a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision (b), a person shall, when leaving a handgun in an unattended vehicle, lock the handgun in the vehicle’s trunk, lock the handgun in a locked container and place the container out of plain view, lock the handgun in a locked container that is permanently affixed to the vehicle’s interior and not in plain view, or lock the handgun in a locked toolbox or utility box.[…]

(A) “Locked container” means a secure container that is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock, combination lock, or similar locking device. The term “locked container” does not include the utility or glove compartment of a motor vehicle.

Many have applied the storage rules to encompass transportation of firearms…if it’s good enough for storage when away from the vehicle, it’s good enough for transport when inside the vehicle. The caveat here is that although Section 25140 doesn’t require the firearm be unloaded (which is OK for CCW holders and LEOs) if you store it loaded without a CCW you can be charged with possession of a loaded gun in public.

SB 2 created the new condition for CCW which is a defined “lockbox”.
As noted by the previous poster, Section 26230 prohibiting carry in sensitive places, introduced the new concept of the “locked lock box”. And stuck its definition in regulations, not statute (much easier to change when new restrictions are thought up). These affect only CCW holders, creating a double standard or some might say a 14th Amendment infringement.

Other concerns
1. The transportation and storage requirements for both CCW and non-CCW are in place for ALL areas, not just sensitive places.

2. The carry/storage rules for guns and ammo on school grounds require the ammo and gun to be in a secure, locked container. (Unless, as above, you are a CCW holder, then you need a locked lock box). Public and private universities and colleges are also slightly different.

See: CA PEN 626.9 (School Gun Free Zone/colleges/universities) and 30310 (Ammunition on School Grounds)

3. SB 2 specifies that only two (2) authorized firearms on a license may be carried under that license at one time. Pre-SB 2, some licensees were able to put more than 2 firearms on their licenses. This allowed them to transport the guns all at one time under the CCW without having to unload or encase the guns in a secure locked container. SB 2 did away with that. If you have 3 or more CCW-authorized guns and are going to the range, all guns over 2 must be unloaded and locked up. It would seem, since you have a CCW, to make sense that a locked lock box be used.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Working in a gun store for almost 4 years and having numerous conversations with our former LAPD buddy who currently teaches CCW classes for LA and Ventura county, the recommendation has always been - if you dont have a CCW - it must be locked AND in the trunk (or in a locking trunk), OR it must be locked and as far away from the driver as possible, i.e. passenger side 2nd row of a crew cab pickup

The trunk is considered a locked container as far as I know, but I also use locking containers and keep guns and loaded mags separate.

 

[OlderThanDirt]

Regarding keeping loaded magazines with your locked firearm.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

I used to suggest the same, and by my reading of PC, that should be acceptable.

I no longer suggest that.

Sometime in the past, an attorney on Calguns posted that he advised his clients to NOT put their locked cases in the center console - too much chance (out of a very small chance) for a judge and a jury to make a mistake due to apparent ambiguity.

If not ccw, why would this be a problem if it’s already satisfied the requirement of safe transportation of a handgun of either locked in trunk unloaded or locked unloaded in a locked container (but not using the glove box or center console as the locked container) for within the vehicle.

For ccw, a lifepod 1.0 or 2.0 with a cable lock, under the passenger seat, securely cabled to the passenger seat anchor struts, satisfies the law; no?

The law states nothing in regards to ease of access. With the locked container, even if it was just a soft case pistol bag with a tsa mini padlock on it counts as a locked container within the vehicle; or even better with a vaultek barricade or lifepod 1.0 or 2.0 which is an actual doj approved safe. What’s wrong with this locked container with unloaded pistol placed inside the center console?

I remember many years ago, before I even had a ccw permit, I learned about the exemption for hunters and anglers on a active hunting or active angling trip, and the concealed unloaded to and from the destination. Game wardens I have asked about the exemption, the rural county ones and the ones with more years under their duty belt, were all in the understanding that the penal code is quite VAGUE (and not specific) on “to and from” destination. To and from can also mean from your front door to the car, and from the car to the trailhead on side of the highway in a rural county. I was advised to be able to articulate to an officer while being in full camo if stopped for something such as brake light bulb out, be careful when driving in sub-urban/city areas, and an officer fresh out of cadet school is different than an officer with more years in understanding gray areas.

When I asked some from more in the sub-urban areas, they were aware of the exemption, but they were all in the no, just because the law doesn’t say not to do it, doesn’t mean you go do it, and possibly mess it up for everybody else. However, if you look up the exemption with the Santa Clara county DA’s office, they recognize the exemption of to and from on an active hunting or angling trip.

Isn’t that the purpose of the law, to state what is prohibited; and what isn’t stated as prohibited, is not prohibited? Obviously it doesn’t mean to drive around with a fishing pole, and take total advantage of it. They were thinking it’s locked container from front door to car, car to parking area, unlock container when parked at the trailhead, and conceal carry unloaded from then on. But, where I hunt at, by the time I enter I can already concealed carry loaded or open carry loaded on an active hunting trip since the discharge of firearms are allowed there.

I called multiple CHP offices, they have never heard of such exemption, and they were all in the no as well. They seen it as unloaded locked in container, until parking at the trailhead. One office, the first officer who answered the call, told me the locked container needed to be in the trunk, ammo and empty mags away from each other in the trunk as far as possible. My response was the penal code for safe transportation says nothing about empty mags and ammo being as far away as possible from each other in the trunk. They transferred me over to the supervisor. I told them based on what is considered safe transportation, I could drive to the hunting location with a pistol case, with a unloaded pistol locked inside, in my front passenger seat, loaded mags inside the center console since it’s not attached to the locked container with the unloaded pistol inside. The supervisor told me; yeh, I wouldn’t pop you or get you for that, that’s fine.

Besides all that up there, I’ve been told before that, GENERALLY, a rural county Leo is going to be different than a view point of a city/sub-urban Leo; in regards to firearms.

 

[Dvrjon]

If not ccw, why would this be a problem if it’s already satisfied the requirement of safe transportation of a handgun of either locked in trunk unloaded or locked unloaded in a locked container (but not using the glove box or center console as the locked container) for within the vehicle.

The specific issue raised by Librarian dealt with whether the after market container is “fully enclosed”. The installation video for the subject unit in Post #1 clearly shows the front of the container is open, although it is covered by the center console housing. That seems to not meet the standard of the container itself being fully enclosed. This is the problem with most of these units as they use a portion of the center console structure as a part of their security.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

On my truck, I have an electric retractable bedcover. It's secure and lock and I would describe it as, as good as if better than a trunk.

The law say unloaded in the trunk, so technically, I can toss the firearms in my range bag and transport in the locked and cover truck bed and good to go right?

While the bed is covered and locked, some might say it’s not a trunk nor a “locked container”. Toss a lock on that range bag and you might pass muster, or better yet a locked container mounted in the bed under that cover.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

The specific issue raised by Librarian dealt with whether the after market container is “fully enclosed”. The installation video for the subject unit in Post #1 clearly shows the front of the container is open, although it is covered by the center console housing. That seems to not meet the standard of the container itself being fully enclosed. This is the problem with most of these units as they use a portion of the center console structure as a part of their security.

If he has the center console safe door closed and locked; it wouldn’t be an issue though; right?

By the way, the stuff I typed up there, I am not advocating for driving around with the locked container with unloaded pistol in the passenger seat; to and from the range or hunting trip. I’m just saying that the law is not specific enough where it’s possible. However, I think it would make a traffic stop not as smooth. It’s best to have the insides look as clean as possible where it doesn’t look like it has anything to do with firearms in the vehicle.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Working in a gun store for almost 4 years and having numerous conversations with our former LAPD buddy who currently teaches CCW classes for LA and Ventura county, the recommendation has always been - if you dont have a CCW - it must be locked AND in the trunk (or in a locking trunk), OR it must be locked and as far away from the driver as possible, i.e. passenger side 2nd row of a crew cab pickup

Has been my general conservative approach for a long time. In fact, because I like to shoot, I won’t buy a vehicle that doesn’t have a trunk anymore. Yes, there is a minivan in the household but I don’t take it to the range.

 

[Dvrjon]

If he has the center console safe door closed and locked; it wouldn’t be an issue though; right?

Well, that’s the basis of the contention. The unit is to be a, “secure container that is fully enclosed”. The container isn’t fully enclosed. The center console cannot be the container or serve as part of the full enclosure of the vault itself. The purpose of the center console is to remove the container from plain sight. Below is a screen shot which clearly shows the vault doesn’t provide full enclosure. It relies on the center console to hide its flaw and making a part of the console the security container thus bumping against the prohibition on its use as such.

Think of it this way: Would it work if that vault was bolted down on the floor in the back seat and then a blanket is placed around to remove it from plain sight? The answer is no, as the vault is not fully enclosed.

It’s an esoteric discussion, but it’s important that the user understand that the point could be made on either side. The trick is being on the winning side of the argument. Or not getting involved in it in the first place.

 

[Jimi Jah]

Has been my general conservative approach for a long time. In fact, because I like to shoot, I won’t buy a vehicle that doesn’t have a trunk anymore. Yes, there is a minivan in the household but I don’t take it to the range.

My Jeep Wrangler doesn't have a trunk. I installed a CA legal locking gun vault under the front seat 10 years ago.

Paranoia can be a issue over thinking compliance.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

My Jeep Wrangler doesn't have a trunk. I installed a CA legal locking gun vault under the front seat 10 years ago.

Paranoia can be an issue over thinking compliance.

You’re not wrong. I do over think things for sure.