Jordan Salinas made a new video

[Gawernator]

His main takeaways are:

• He had been carrying 5.7 “Dragon Fang” ammunition largely under the assumption that any defensive use would happen at typical close distances, roughly 10 yards or less. After his experience, he is much more concerned about ammunition consistency and accuracy at 50, 70, or even 90 yards. He specifically admits the rounds he was carrying were not known for particularly good groups.
• He now thinks your equipment and training envelope should extend well beyond the statistically likely scenario. His point is not that everyone should expect a long-range handgun fight, but that real incidents do not necessarily cooperate with whatever scenario you optimized your gear around.
• He intends to test several 5.7 loads from a rest at extended distances to determine which ones actually provide consistent accuracy. He also plans to develop a drill based loosely on the demands of the incident so other shooters can test whether they have the required capability.
• Probably his biggest equipment change is adopting a pistol red dot. He had trained and carried irons for years and previously decided the cost of adapting his pistol for an optic was better spent on ammunition and training. After what happened, he has reversed that position pretty hard: “get the DOT,” become familiar with it, and train with it, because he now believes the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
• His new EDC setup is an FN 5.7 MRD in FDE with a Vortex Defender CCW, plus several other accessories. He then shoots FN and Fiocchi 40-grain ammunition at 50 yards to get an informal sense of their performance.
• He is very explicit that he is still learning the red dot himself. He says acquiring the dot is still a learning curve and asks viewers for advice, which is part of the broader tone of the video: instead of presenting himself as having executed everything perfectly, he is treating the incident as something to analyze and learn from.

The TL;DR is: he came away believing that defensive preparation should be capability-based rather than scenario-based. Don’t assume the problem will happen at 3–10 yards just because that is the most statistically likely defensive distance. He now wants an accurate ammunition/pistol combination, a red dot, and enough proficiency to make significantly harder shots if an abnormal situation demands it.

 

[RustVendor]

Interesting guy he's pretty funny

 

[Mannyy]

A comment that struck out to me was depending how comfortable you are as a civilian getting involved with your CCW you either press the shooter to close to gap or you take pop shots but doing something is better than nothing.

 

[Gawernator]

Interesting guy he's pretty funny

You guys look like each other

 

[RustVendor]

You guys look like each other

 

[BOOLITZ]

5.7 enthusiasts!

Perfect opportunity for a shameless plug of my 5.7 ammo for sale in our lovely classifieds section.

I just sold mine. Never really touched it.

 

[decius_mus]

Probably his biggest equipment change is adopting a pistol red dot. He had trained and carried irons for years and previously decided the cost of adapting his pistol for an optic was better spent on ammunition and training. After what happened, he has reversed that position pretty hard: “get the DOT,” become familiar with it, and train with it, because he now believes the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.

Ken Hackathorn btfo

e came away believing that defensive preparation should be capability-based rather than scenario-based. Don’t assume the problem will happen at 3–10 yards just because that is the most statistically likely defensive distance.

I don't disagree with this premise but I also don't entirely agree with the context. For example, i'm not going to train with a handgun out to 50-90+ yards because i'm not going to challenge a guy holding a rifle at that distance with 9mm. Best i'll do is 25 and hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[RustVendor]

Ken Hackathorn btfo



I don't disagree with this premise but I also don't entirely agree with the context. For example, i'm not going to train with a handgun out to 50-90+ yards because i'm not going to challenge a guy holding a rifle at that distance with 9mm. Best i'll do is 25 and hope it doesn't come to that.

besides the fact that it's tricky to find a place to train at over 50 yards with pistol, why wouldn't you train that if you could? Training at 50 would make 25 easy. You can't really say what you would do if presented the opportunity, placing an arbitrary limit on distance seems short sighted. a lot of 9mm defensive rounds are still over 1000fps at 50 yards and even further

 

[decius_mus]

besides the fact that it's tricky to find a place to train at over 50 yards with pistol, why wouldn't you train that if you could? Training at 50 would make 25 easy. You can't really say what you would do if presented the opportunity, placing an arbitrary limit on distance seems short sighted. a lot of 9mm defensive rounds are still over 1000fps at 50 yards and even further

a few reasons

1. Hard to find somewhere to train at 50+.
2. getting hits at 50+ yards with a 15-20 yard zero means knowing holds.
3. Even if I know the holds at 50 yards, getting accurate hits essentially requires no pressure (that means no one shooting back at me).
4. I'm not going to engage an active shooter at that distance because my priority is to find cover / secure family / bug out if possible not be a hero.
5. 25 yards isn't an arbitrary limit. It's basically the limit of most ranges around me (besides the 100 yard outdoor range at R66).
6. I'm not saying 9mm isn't lethal at 50+ yards. I'm saying that I don't think it's effective in my hands coming out of a handgun while my adrenaline is pumping and while risking a bunch of misses on a non ideal backstop.
7. I would rather use my limited training time / resources on statistically common events rather than edge cases. Meaning that even if I could find a place to train at 50+, I wouldn't do it very often.

 

[Gawernator]

Ken Hackathorn btfo



I don't disagree with this premise but I also don't entirely agree with the context. For example, i'm not going to train with a handgun out to 50-90+ yards because i'm not going to challenge a guy holding a rifle at that distance with 9mm. Best i'll do is 25 and hope it doesn't come to that.

There’s a video where an Air Force dude had to shoot across the street to his neighbors house because someone had a gun and he made the shot one handed. Not sure of the distance but I bet it was like 35-50 yards lol. I think the point is you never really know.

I’d like to try just for the fun of it. I agree with rust that closer distances would become even easier if you practice farther. Just like any sport

 

[decius_mus]

There’s a video where an Air Force dude had to shoot across the street to his neighbors house because someone had a gun and he made the shot one handed. Not sure of the distance but I bet it was like 35-50 yards lol. I think the point is you never really know.

I’d like to try just for the fun of it. I agree with rust that closer distances would become even easier if you practice farther. Just like any sport

Yeah i'm never taking that shot even if I train at 50. A big part of firearm safety is to know your target and what's behind it. Taking a 50 yard shot across the street at a neighbor's house when I don't know who or what is behind drywall is a risky proposition.

 

[RustVendor]

Yeah i'm never taking that shot even if I train at 50. A big part of firearm safety is to know your target and what's behind it. Taking a 50 yard shot across the street at a neighbor's house when I don't know who or what is behind drywall is a risky proposition.

Ok but what if you do know what's behind? The ballistics of 9mm are such that out to 50 is only a few inches of drop with a 25 yard zero. The whole point is that you may not get to choose. You definitely should go shoot at 50 because it's not nearly as hard as you think to hit a man sized target.

 

[Darqhelmet]

There’s a video where an Air Force dude had to shoot across the street to his neighbors house because someone had a gun and he made the shot one handed. Not sure of the distance but I bet it was like 35-50 yards lol. I think the point is you never really know.

I’d like to try just for the fun of it. I agree with rust that closer distances would become even easier if you practice farther. Just like any sport

Wait, what? Why the F- was he shooting across the street into another house?

do you have a link, I need to see / read up on this one.

 

[Darqhelmet]

Yeah i'm never taking that shot even if I train at 50. A big part of firearm safety is to know your target and what's behind it. Taking a 50 yard shot across the street at a neighbor's house when I don't know who or what is behind drywall is a risky proposition.

Risky is being charitable

 

[Darqhelmet]

His main takeaways are:

• He had been carrying 5.7 “Dragon Fang” ammunition largely under the assumption that any defensive use would happen at typical close distances, roughly 10 yards or less. After his experience, he is much more concerned about ammunition consistency and accuracy at 50, 70, or even 90 yards. He specifically admits the rounds he was carrying were not known for particularly good groups.
• He now thinks your equipment and training envelope should extend well beyond the statistically likely scenario. His point is not that everyone should expect a long-range handgun fight, but that real incidents do not necessarily cooperate with whatever scenario you optimized your gear around.
• He intends to test several 5.7 loads from a rest at extended distances to determine which ones actually provide consistent accuracy. He also plans to develop a drill based loosely on the demands of the incident so other shooters can test whether they have the required capability.
• Probably his biggest equipment change is adopting a pistol red dot. He had trained and carried irons for years and previously decided the cost of adapting his pistol for an optic was better spent on ammunition and training. After what happened, he has reversed that position pretty hard: “get the DOT,” become familiar with it, and train with it, because he now believes the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
• His new EDC setup is an FN 5.7 MRD in FDE with a Vortex Defender CCW, plus several other accessories. He then shoots FN and Fiocchi 40-grain ammunition at 50 yards to get an informal sense of their performance.
• He is very explicit that he is still learning the red dot himself. He says acquiring the dot is still a learning curve and asks viewers for advice, which is part of the broader tone of the video: instead of presenting himself as having executed everything perfectly, he is treating the incident as something to analyze and learn from.

The TL;DR is: he came away believing that defensive preparation should be capability-based rather than scenario-based. Don’t assume the problem will happen at 3–10 yards just because that is the most statistically likely defensive distance. He now wants an accurate ammunition/pistol combination, a red dot, and enough proficiency to make significantly harder shots if an abnormal situation demands it.

Oh, this dude. He got lucky, glad he got lucky, that though. Oof, get my wife and kid and gtfo. I don’t buy into the “sheep dog” or what ever it’s being called now.

 

[Gawernator]

Wait, what? Why the F- was he shooting across the street into another house?

do you have a link, I need to see / read up on this one.

Probably so the other guy doesn’t kill him and his wife but hey dude was a chad

 

[Enthused]

Yeah i'm never taking that shot even if I train at 50. A big part of firearm safety is to know your target and what's behind it. Taking a 50 yard shot across the street at a neighbor's house when I don't know who or what is behind drywall is a risky proposition.

Never say never

 

[Gawernator]

Yeah i'm never taking that shot even if I train at 50. A big part of firearm safety is to know your target and what's behind it. Taking a 50 yard shot across the street at a neighbor's house when I don't know who or what is behind drywall is a risky proposition.

Better them than me

 

[Darqhelmet]

Probably so the other guy doesn’t kill him and his wife but hey dude was a chad

No, that’s getting lucky not being “a chad”. Do you have a link to the article or video ?

 

[Gawernator]

No, that’s getting lucky not being “a chad”. Do you have a link to the article or video ?

I think it’s an ASP video, not sure