New Political Coalition - California Common Ground Coalition

[Jimi Jah]

Just to play devil's advocate Newsom literally has expanded health coverage in the state for low income folks. Insurance covers mental health too.

He also boasted about giving free health care to illegal aliens. Just a few years ago he swore no taxpayer funds were being directed to illegal aliens. Even though at that time illegals got free k-12 education and free health care in our emergency rooms.

As to the CA AG, that office is pre selected by the democrat party. Those that have voted against that already left this state.

 

[GoldensRule]

He also boasted about giving free health care to illegal aliens.

Because immigrants aren't human beings, because they don't pick our produce, work in our businesses and contribute greatly to our economy. Just let them and everyone who can't afford healthcare and meds just die in the streets. Nice Jimi.

 

[gorgothmog]

Arguing facts with a demagogue such as the OP is fun but unfulfilling (although valuable for the audience), demagogues will either declare that your facts are lies, move on to more lies, or abandon the discussion as the OP seems to have done.

I am literally trying to avoid anything that might try to invite culture politics from either side by favoring economics, in order to unite us as gun owners. If you have any ideas about tipping an AG race or breaking the supermajority, I would gladly welcome it. I think you should save "demagogue" for someone else.

 

[Hamburger Monster]

By this logic is Marjorie Taylor Green all of a sudden a t for wanting ACA subsidies to continue? Is Massie a war dove for not wanting war in Venezuela? You'd be surprised how well paid family leave polls on both sides. Also, shouldn't we as gun owners advocate for access to things like mental healthcare?

I don't know of or heard of a single person who has ever been cured of a mental health issue. Most are just pumped up with various drugs/chemicals and sent on their way. And the side effects of these drugs are increased suicidal tendencies, aggressive outbursts, etc. doesn't sound like effective treatment to me.

I don't know anywhere in the constitution where it grants the government authority to manage healthcare

And your reasoning behind so called gun crime is suspect

Maybe instead of a reactivate approach to the issue, we should be asking why the increase? What is the driving factors behind it? Is it social media? Video games? Government taking over the role of the father in the family? Lack of punishment for children who act out or miss behave? All of the above? Something else?

Then making changes to address these issues.

 

[gorgothmog]

You know, I'm happy with the poll as it is, and I'm gonna stop engaging with the comments. I've received enough feedback from forums and other chatrooms to gauge opinions from all sides, I think. AB 1263, the attempt to change Castle Doctrine by Zbur, and the gun barrel background check are the worst pieces of legislation I've ever seen, and it's just lit a fire under me. I'll just donate a good chunk to the CRPA for Christmas and put up my feet for the holidays.

 

[GoldensRule]

I am literally trying to avoid anything that might try to invite culture politics from either side by favoring economics, in order to unite us as gun owners. If you have any ideas about tipping an AG race or breaking the supermajority, I would gladly welcome it. I think you should save "demagogue" for someone else.

Remarkable case of denial you've got going there.

Your comments such as:

"The gun grabbers dream of a total gun ban"
"You think Newscum or Bonta want universal mental healthcare? All they want is Dems and Republicans to keep fighting over gun control"
"get Every Town and Moms Demand Action away from the Cal DoJ"

And other comments you have posted here, are nothing but pure demagoguery.

Additionally, you have been completely unresponsive to questions about your "stabile society", your desire to deny people their first amendment rights and your claim about "mountains of evidence" as to the causes of violent crimes aligning with your undefined but populist solutions.

 

[gorgothmog]

I don't know of or heard of a single person who has ever been cured of a mental health issue. Most are just pumped up with various drugs/chemicals and sent on their way. And the side effects of these drugs are increased suicidal tendencies, aggressive outbursts, etc. doesn't sound like effective treatment to me.

I don't know anywhere in the constitution where it grants the government authority to manage healthcare

And your reasoning behind so called gun crime is suspect

Maybe instead of a reactivate approach to the issue, we should be asking why the increase? What is the driving factors behind it? Is it social media? Video games? Government taking over the role of the father in the family? Lack of punishment for children who act out or miss behave? All of the above? Something else?

Then making changes to address these issues.

These are all good ideas to think about, and I appreciate your input. This is actually the kind of good faith reply I'm looking for.

 

[Hamburger Monster]

Because immigrants aren't human beings, because they don't pick our produce, work in our businesses and contribute greatly to our economy. Just let them and everyone who can't afford healthcare and meds just die in the streets. Nice Jimi.

Democrats cried the same when Republicans freed the slaves.

Illegal aliens are a net drain on the economy. They take more then they give back. Don't pay taxes, get free healthcare and apply for tax refunds or get free benefits, EBT, etc. all while us hard working and tax paying people can not get such benefits.

Legal aliens are generally good for the economy. They are more like a patriot and are more likely to pay their own way.

Places like California are giving away these benefits and healthcare to the illegal aliens and others that are not contributing more then taking. Otherwise they wouldn't need the hand outs.

And I'm not sure how giving free healthcare to illegal aliens is supposed to fix crime. Unless you're implying that it's the illegal aliens causing a majority. In that case, deportation is a better option. Which is already happening

 

[Jimi Jah]

Because immigrants aren't human beings, because they don't pick our produce, work in our businesses and contribute greatly to our economy. Just let them and everyone who can't afford healthcare and meds just die in the streets. Nice Jimi.

US code says they shall be deported to their home country. If not, 2 billion would come here. Offering bennies is a magnet for illegal immigration.

Every other country enforces immigration laws. If all the other countries are also wrong, what is your solution?

Being a human being doesn't give you the right to break our immigration laws.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Do you think we could build a California Common Ground Coalition that brings liberal and conservative gun owners together by focusing primarily on economic class issues? Too often the gun debate is framed only as rights versus restrictions, but what actually drives violence and insecurity is economic instability and lack of access to basic services. If we emphasize universal mental health care, housing access, living wages, and affordable college we speak to working people across the political spectrum. These are pragmatic solutions that matter in everyday life rather than abstract culture issues that lose the middle. This coalition would recognize that reducing gun violence is tied to broad community wellbeing.
The first thing we need is to elect an attorney general who prioritizes these kinds of policies rather than performative restrictions that only inflame division. Right now, many lawmakers treat new gun rules as symbolic law in order to tout them in news cycles without moving the needle on actual safety. This leads to a waste of legal and advocacy resources because groups end up fighting over rules instead of addressing root causes. A coalition built around economic security could provide a voting bloc that is powerful in statewide races and in local elections because it cuts across traditional party lines. Many Republicans want healthcare and economic security too, so this is not purely a left issue.
We are not arguing with the Second Amendment in principle but instead asking a simple question: what policies actually reduce violence and improve life for working Californians? Courts like the Supreme Court are likely to keep overturning gun laws that stray from historical tradition, making legal fights endless and costly. Economic solutions like universal mental healthcare are less likely to be thrown out because they are grounded in wellbeing and community support. If a large voter base cares about these issues and shows up at the ballot box, politicians will listen. So here is the question: would you support a California Common Ground Coalition voting bloc that prioritizes economic justice as the vehicle for reducing gun violence?

you’re right about poverty being the biggest correlation to violent crime. While we don't collect financial info and tax status on violent criminals, we do know that the one's from urban areas come from poor neighborhoods with poor schools and poor access to economic opportunity. It's practically a reduction to the most basic needs of survival and “competition” for resources.

My brand of politics is centered around the middle-class remaining the economic and political powerhouse and flavors of capitalism, but certainly not the oligarchy we live in today where tech execs have more power and access than 99.999…% of the country.

Get rid of “citizens united”! I’m not completely against lobbying but there’d certainly be strict transparency and conflict of interest regulations around it.

There'd be a strong incentive to work hard, innovate and be valued for it but also healthcare as a right, a social safety net for the elderly and folks who are truly disabled, leading the world in education and career training/advancement. You'd be able to use the same grants in higher-ed for trade schools and programs. High value for military, first responders, teachers and public service, and no [need for] welfare for able bodied adults. You'd be working harder to keep yourself poor than be a productive member of society. And of course, fiscal responsibility and balanced budgets.

I guess the intersection here would be “defense as a right”, strong advocacy for recreation and sportsman’s clubs/activities, along with preservation of the outdoors and public lands.

Perhaps the TL;DR would be “resurrecting” the American middle-class and our right to defend ourselves.

I frame it like this because we’d have to make it very difficult for the [political] powers that be to box us in as just “gun nuts”.

A model that actually serves the majority of the American people would be a challenge to current political power structure and both sides would make it their mission to sow division and destroy.

 

[NedSled]

Do you think we could build a California Common Ground Coalition that brings liberal and conservative gun owners together by focusing primarily on economic class issues? Too often the gun debate is framed only as rights versus restrictions, but what actually drives violence and insecurity is economic instability and lack of access to basic services. If we emphasize universal mental health care, housing access, living wages, and affordable college we speak to working people across the political spectrum. These are pragmatic solutions that matter in everyday life rather than abstract culture issues that lose the middle. This coalition would recognize that reducing gun violence is tied to broad community wellbeing.
The first thing we need is to elect an attorney general who prioritizes these kinds of policies rather than performative restrictions that only inflame division. Right now, many lawmakers treat new gun rules as symbolic law in order to tout them in news cycles without moving the needle on actual safety. This leads to a waste of legal and advocacy resources because groups end up fighting over rules instead of addressing root causes. A coalition built around economic security could provide a voting bloc that is powerful in statewide races and in local elections because it cuts across traditional party lines. Many Republicans want healthcare and economic security too, so this is not purely a left issue.
We are not arguing with the Second Amendment in principle but instead asking a simple question: what policies actually reduce violence and improve life for working Californians? Courts like the Supreme Court are likely to keep overturning gun laws that stray from historical tradition, making legal fights endless and costly. Economic solutions like universal mental healthcare are less likely to be thrown out because they are grounded in wellbeing and community support. If a large voter base cares about these issues and shows up at the ballot box, politicians will listen. So here is the question: would you support a California Common Ground Coalition voting bloc that prioritizes economic justice as the vehicle for reducing gun violence?

For the moment, this is my voting formula:

1) Find Republican Candidates - Google if they have a MAGA history or history of spouting "stolen election" disinformation.*
2) If yes, move onto next Republican
3) If unable to find a Republican where the answer is "no", vote Democrat least far left.
4) If unable to find a centrist democrat... sigh and vote democrat anyway.

I don't see that changing any time soon.

Yeah, I know I'm voting against my own gun interests when I do this... but MAGA needs to die hard and quickly. Not gonna let my gun hobby dissuade me from that. Sorry.

Don't like it? Too bad, we're in this for the COUNTRY, boys and girls.

*And actually I look for condemnation / denial of these things... someone having just scrubbed their website and social media of references to these things is not good enough... I want outright repudiation.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Illegal aliens are a net drain on the economy. They take more then they give back. Don't pay taxes, get free healthcare and apply for tax refunds or get free benefits, EBT, etc. all while us hard working and tax paying people can not get such benefits.

Regardless of how you feel about immigration this assertion is factually incorrect.

Immigrants, including illegal immigrants, are actually a net benefit for the US economy since they pay taxes and receive next to nothing in benefits. Additionally, low crime rates due to fear of deportation.

I’m certainly against open borders but I can’t hate them for doing exactly the same thing I’d do to try and provide a better life for my family, were I in their situation.

 

[Deleted member 31158]

Do you happen to have a link to reputable statistics pertaining to gun violence and legally acquired firearms? I can think of a number of high visibility massacres that were committed with legally acquired weapons, e.g. 2017 Stephan Paddock Las Vegas Massacre, 60 dead, 413 injured by gun fire, total injuries 867.

Here is the detail of his massacre arsenal from Wikipedia:

Wikipedia is not considered a reliable or reputable source. Also, including injuries that were NOT related to gunfire is like the media counting COVID as A cause of death, not THE cause of death to inflate the numbers.

 

[GoldensRule]

Regardless of how you feel about immigration this assertion is factually incorrect.

Immigrants, including illegal immigrants, are actually a net benefit for the US economy since they pay taxes and receive next to nothing in benefits. Additionally, low crime rates due to fear of deportation.

I’m certainly against open borders but I can’t hate them for doing exactly the same thing I’d do to try and provide a better life for my family, were I in their situation.

 

[GoldensRule]

Wikipedia is not considered a reliable or reputable source. Also, including injuries that were NOT related to gunfire is like the media counting COVID as A cause of death, not THE cause of death to inflate the numbers.

Do you have specific information that disproves the information I posted? Something other than a genetic fallacy pertaining to the source of information?

 

[GoldensRule]

US code says they shall be deported to their home country. If not, 2 billion would come here. Offering bennies is a magnet for illegal immigration.

Every other country enforces immigration laws. If all the other countries are also wrong, what is your solution?

Being a human being doesn't give you the right to break our immigration laws.

Let's clarify a couple of things. Entering the US illegally is a Federal misdemeanor. Other Federal misdemeanors include: DUI and Traffic Violations on federal parkways, Drug Possession - Simple possession of small quantities of controlled substances, Disorderly Conduct - Creating public disturbances or fighting on federal property, etc.

Unlawful Presence: Simply being in the U.S. without valid documentation (such as overstaying a visa) is generally a civil violation, not a criminal offense. Penalties for civil violations include deportation and fines but not federal prison time.

Many, many undocumented people are not being repatriated to their home countries, but that is irrelevant to the topic of the discussion.

I'm not interested in what other countries do. Other countries torture prisoners, should we do that here just because they do?

Undocumented people, as a whole, produce a net positive effect on our economy. If we are going to allow employers to get away with employing them and collecting and remitting taxes to the treasury without receiving any kind of benefits then we as a state and a nation can afford to provide medical care for sick and or injured human beings. I can't speak for you but when someone shows up at my door hungry, I feed them and when they are sick, I try to take care of them. It's the decent, compassionate thing to do. Many Americans have lost sight of decency instead, they seem to focus on making billionaires wealthier and kicking the unfortunate to the curb. It's an ass-backwards way of thinking and running a country.

 

[GoldensRule]

Wikipedia is not considered a reliable or reputable source. Also, including injuries that were NOT related to gunfire is like the media counting COVID as A cause of death, not THE cause of death to inflate the numbers.

The information in Wikipedia that I posted contained numerous citations. Paddocks armory information came from this source and others.

LIST: Guns and evidence in Vegas mass shooting

The Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department released a preliminary investigative report on the Las Vegas mass shooting earlier this week.

www.abc15.com

You can read the piece for yourself, you will note the citations and I challenge you to demonstrate that any of the information presented as fact is incorrect.

2017 Las Vegas shooting - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Deleted member 16735]

For fans of capitalism, the economy as it is today requires growth. Growth requires new members. New members requires immigration. Lack of immigration requires more government intervention and control on the economy. See: Japan.

We have more jobs than citizens because that's how it's designed. I don't think anyone reasonable would argue that we should have open borders and just not know who is coming in. But the programs to facilitate legal immigration don't touch the surface of the actual need for labor that we have. In California alone we are talking 2 million workers. People think 2 million workers that work for the lowest wages of anyone, do the dirtiest jobs there are, for the longest hours are somehow a net drain on society? I promise you the people that think that contribute far less than the average immigrant.

 

[GoldensRule]

For fans of capitalism, the economy as it is today requires growth. Growth requires new members. New members requires immigration. Lack of immigration requires more government intervention and control on the economy. See: Japan.

We have more jobs than citizens because that's how it's designed. I don't think anyone reasonable would argue that we should have open borders and just not know who is coming in. But the programs to facilitate legal immigration don't touch the surface of the actual need for labor that we have. In California alone we are talking 2 million workers. People think 2 million workers that work for the lowest wages of anyone, do the dirtiest jobs there are, for the longest hours are somehow a net drain on society? I promise you the people that think that contribute far less than the average immigrant.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Do you happen to have a link to reputable statistics pertaining to gun violence and legally acquired firearms? I can think of a number of high visibility massacres that were committed with legally acquired weapons, e.g. 2017 Stephan Paddock Las Vegas Massacre, 60 dead, 413 injured by gun fire, total injuries 867.

Here is the detail of his massacre arsenal from Wikipedia:

Ive seen statistics all over the place, even within this article there are a wide variety but this states in a recent survey of California crime that they could verify that 25% of guns used in crimes were obtained legally.

Firearm Acquisition and Criminal Use: Legal and illegal possession of Crime Guns in California (2010−2021)

Despite the importance of understanding how gun offenders obtain their firearms, data on acquisition pathways remains limited. Using records of guns r…

www.sciencedirect.com

Paddock is an interesting case because it breaks every rule. He had no clear motive, he obtained his firearms legally, and people that knew him were shocked that he did it because he didn't have the typical signs that someone would associate with the worst mass shooting in modern history. This is kind of an interesting read: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41518852

According the the study they cite, 1 in 5 mass shooters had obvious signs of mental illness. The question then is would the system have even stopped those 1 in 5 from access to a firearm? I've done quite a bit of psychiatry over the years, its definitely a soft science even though I do believe in the fundamental process. how many people would be like, "yeah I intend to use this firearm to hurt people" when they go through a mandatory 1 hour screening every 5 years.

So I remain skeptical. It's tricky because I'm sure it would stop someone from committing a crime. But could it also be used as a weapon itself. For instance the federal government is currently labeling transgender people as mentally ill. Seems like red states could very easily exclude anyone they don't like from owning guns based on things they don't like. There's always a balance of risk between freedom and regulation, neither one work 100%. In many ways the people that want to ban guns completely are as naive as those who think you can get rid of drugs, maybe moreso because there's no right to drugs in the constitution.