New Shooters: Start with red dot or irons?

[rodralig]

I might be in the minority but I actually prefer irons over dots but that’s cause I feel like irons are more unforgiving and therefore it forced me to focus more on my fundamentals.

Actually irons allows you to be more sloppy.

 

[ikeo1]

better faster what is this the 6 million dollar man ?

You are paying for an advantage. Irons are free. Hopefully you read the part where I said to get really good mastering irons after red dot is the way.

Closer you are the less red dots matter

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Red dots all the way… you’ll be better faster but if you want to get really good irons is the next one to master after.

I think if you’re fast with red dots the index will come naturally with irons. Lining up the sights will be easier. Going from dot to iron is easier than iron to dot

So one of the guys I train frequently with is retired LE (currently trains LE), and master class competitor in multiple leagues.

One of the things he's pedantic about is not using "faster"/"slower". He'll tell you that's just not enough information to make meaningful corrections or improve performance. So in training, when I have a C zone hits (1 C or 90% accuracy is ok if I'm pushing my limits but D is unacceptable) he won't accept (especially from me) "I went too fast" or "I need to slow down".

I need to to recall those shots and tell him exactly what happened. "That was the third shot. My front post was too high when I pulled the trigger, didn't let the gun settle", "I had good sight picture but didn't prep the trigger and pulled too hard", "had to fix my grip on the second shot"...then I need to tell him how I'll correct it.

My point is that why I recommend new shooters start with irons is that they'll build pistol fundamentals and reflexes "faster":

Having to align 3 points of reference and then adjust your vision to see enough of the target to aim requires more work, upfront - contrary to what JJ said (however, I agree there are some things that make the dot as a system more complex). Irons are more sensitive to changing grip angles so you need to be able to feel those changes when drawing and presenting, a weak support grip or wrists will move the sights off target so you'll have readjust your vision and realign sights...so there's a forcing factor to build stronger pistol fundamentals, reflexes, diagnostics that directly translate to shooting with a dot as well. When I went back to shooting with a dot I was able to start calling my shots almost immediately.

Now, I might not be as strongly opinionated about this if I felt the majority of folks that start learning shoot with a dot see learning/training with irons as important but that's just not the case. Going to from dot to irons is going to be more difficult, requiring more adjustments. The only sacrifice I see in starting with irons is that dots are more fun and maybe your pistol doesn't look as cool as most.

 

[ikeo1]

One of my favorite competitive shooters is JJ Raccaza. He's also a former US Air Marshall so he incorporates or caveats defense concepts into his trainings. I don't know how I just found these videos but here's a few of him discussing irons vs. red dots.

Just saw him yesterday… I’ve been organizing his classes for the last couple of years here. He shot out level II after training SOF teams.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

You are paying for an advantage. Irons are free. Hopefully you read the part where I said to get really good mastering irons after red dot is the way.

Closer you are the less red dots matter

I was arguing with an "old-timer" about this a couple of weeks ago that I'll theorize irons don't necessarily offer an advantage to any distance where a sight picture is necessary. I only watched this whole video a few days ago but here's the timestamp where JJ tests that out.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Actually irons allows you to be more sloppy.

How so?

 

[jayson_b24]

Take off your optics; knock your irons off with a hammer; just "point & click". Be a man.

 

[grandpapeepap]

Point shooting needs to make a comeback

 

[jayson_b24]

The Taurus Curve got it right. Change my mind.

 

[ikeo1]

I was arguing with an "old-timer" about this a couple of weeks ago that I'll theorize irons don't necessarily offer an advantage to any distance where a sight picture is necessary. I only watched this whole video a few days ago but here's the timestamp where JJ tests that out.

Two shots it’s more spread out like he says but you have to have the complete package. He’s saying what I’m saying mostly, You have to build the index first, there’s a couple of stages to this.

1. Finding the dot / building your index
2. irons will help you do that but your eyes have to focus best you have the three reference points
3. Once you are able to find the dot consistently , it’s easier with the red dot
4 once you find the red dot consistently , getting good with irons after that means you’re mentally processing faster so it’s a higher level.

The main thing is one target or multiple targets, your brain has to process more and faster with irons. If you can do that, it’s a higher level of advanced vs a red dot. I’m just saying red dot is easier to get to A to C where irons are A to B and dots will cover the mid range better for ages.

The most advanced people are good at both.

Theres disadvantages to a dot too that irons don’t have like battery going out or optic coming off or breaking.

As a starting point though it’s easier to teach and learn and practice with a dot. Because all you need to do is see the dot

 

[grandpapeepap]

Two shots it’s more spread out like he says but you have to have the complete package. He’s saying what I’m saying mostly, You have to build the index first, there’s a couple of stages to this.

1. Finding the dot / building your index
2. irons will help you do that but your eyes have to focus best you have the three reference points
3. Once you are able to find the dot consistently , it’s easier with the red dot
4 once you find the red dot consistently , getting good with irons after that means you’re mentally processing faster so it’s a higher level.

The main thing is one target or multiple targets, your brain has to process more and faster with irons. If you can do that, it’s a higher level of advanced vs a red dot. I’m just saying red dot is easier to get to A to C where irons are A to B and dots will cover the mid range better for ages.

The most advanced people are good at both.

With the irons that have the tritium night sights dot on them, its the same thing right. you have the "ghost image" bouncing with each shot like a red dot while you focus on your target. I only use red dots on rifles and irons with pistols

 

[rodralig]

How so?

Read post #20 in this thread. Or, if you would prefer a different explanation, here is another way to look at it.

Iron sights on a pistol can let a shooter get away with more sloppiness because the sights themselves do not always make small errors obvious. The front sight can still look “good enough” even when the gun is slightly misaligned, the grip is inconsistent, or the trigger press is disturbing the gun right before the shot breaks. At closer distances, those mistakes may still land acceptable hits, so the shooter can think the fundamentals are fine when they are really just being masked.

A red dot exposes those issues more clearly. It makes movement, wobble, poor presentation, and trigger disruption much easier to see, which is why it often feels less forgiving even though it is ultimately a better diagnostic tool.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Two shots it’s more spread out like he says but you have to have the complete package. He’s saying what I’m saying mostly, You have to build the index first, there’s a couple of stages to this.

I guess I was getting at "Closer you are the less red dots matter" with that part of the video.

Dude told someone not to use a dot on their EDC since most CCW interactions happen within 12yds and you don't have time to use a dot. That's not necessarily counter to what you said but I told him I'm still faster with a red dot at close distances - unless I have to thumb-pectoral index in which case that's too close to confirm any sights.

 

[ikeo1]

I guess I was getting at "Closer you are the less red dots matter" with that part of the video.

Dude told someone not to use a dot on their EDC since most CCW interactions happen within 12yds and you don't have time to use a dot. That's not necessarily counter to what you said but I told him I'm still faster with a red dot at close distances - unless I have to thumb-pectoral index in which case that's too close to confirm any sights.

Within 12 yards once you get your index down you can get A-D zone without any sight based on muscle memory.

It all depends on the person too. Older you get the more people lean to dots because of aging eyes and ability to focus.

It’s highly variable, and usually subjective. Theres always exceptions so don’t take what I’m saying as the only way but general experiences.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Another thing is my eyes are also just weird, I'm cross eye dominant and with a pistol it matters much less because you can simply just move the gun over and use the other eye fairly easily. Even so, my eyes can switch dominance sometimes. Its really bad shooting sporting clays and hunting with a shotgun, I actually put a dot on my hunting gun to try this season. But with a dot even if my eyes switch dominance the dot stats on target and it doesn't matter . I could just be retarded, iI never felt good on irons and when I first tied a dot in like 2016 it was like, oh shiiiiit. So maybe I'm just jealous

 

[john_marsten_1873]

I might be in the minority but I actually prefer irons over dots but that’s cause I feel like irons are more unforgiving and therefore it forced me to focus more on my fundamentals.

To be fair, red dots are easier. Where the dot goes, the hole goes. A buddy of mine who couldn’t shoot an A zone group within 6 yards, was able to consistently hit the A zone with my red dot. So much so that he disliked shooting his stock Legion P229 and traded it for my P365 w/ TLR-7A and Holosun 507k.

Yep! In helping new shooters out I basically stopped letting them shoot my red dot because they immediately run out and buy one and don't look back.

Instagram post: "Only been shooting for a week, I'm a natural"

But when then I tell them: "from compressed ready, you're going to present and put one shot in the black within 2 seconds" (7yds)..."You just took out an innocent bystander!"

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Another thing is my eyes are also just weird, I'm cross eye dominant and with a pistol it matters much less because you can simply just move the gun over and use the other eye fairly easily. Even so, my eyes can switch dominance sometimes. Its really bad shooting sporting clays and hunting with a shotgun, I actually put a dot on my hunting gun to try this season. But with a dot even if my eyes switch dominance the dot stats on target and it doesn't matter . I could just be retarded, iI never felt good on irons and when I first tied a dot in like 2016 it was like, oh shiiiiit. So maybe I'm just jealous

Actually, you make a REALLY good point! Cross-eye dominance adds another [big] layer of difficulty for new shooters. I've only been able to diagnose that twice so far...and it was by having them try out a dot.

I was frustrated as was trying everything: "close one eye, close the opposite eye"...then they're like "Oh yeah! I focus better with my left eye." They they stuck with it eventually pickup irons pretty well but it was a lot more work than normal.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Within 12 yards once you get your index down you can get A-D zone without any sight based on muscle memory.

For someone who trains, for sure!

But when I RSO or teach folks, the first distance at one of the ranges is 7yds and the vast majority of the hits are at ring 7 or lower, with or without a dot.

Then I tell them, "I'm going to show you some magic: you're going to become an exceptionally better shooter in 20rds or less"
- slowly pull the trigger back until you hit a "wall" and stop there, but don't fire
- ok next, I want you to be laser focused on where the x crosses, now bring your sights in front of that
- now let's put them together
- ok, good job! you hit the bullseye! Can you repeat that?...

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Read post #20 in this thread. Or, if you would prefer a different explanation, here is another way to look at it.

Iron sights on a pistol can let a shooter get away with more sloppiness because the sights themselves do not always make small errors obvious. The front sight can still look “good enough” even when the gun is slightly misaligned, the grip is inconsistent, or the trigger press is disturbing the gun right before the shot breaks. At closer distances, those mistakes may still land acceptable hits, so the shooter can think the fundamentals are fine when they are really just being masked.

A red dot exposes those issues more clearly. It makes movement, wobble, poor presentation, and trigger disruption much easier to see, which is why it often feels less forgiving even though it is ultimately a better diagnostic tool.

This is actually the exact opposite. Both the dot and irons have a window. As long as the dot (imaginary dot for black front iron) for both sighting systems stays somewhere in that window, even on the edges of it, you can still get an A zone hit - obviously, as long as you're centered on POA and you don't add disruptive input before breaking the shot.

Which sighting system has a bigger [literal] window - allowing allowing a larger margin of error?

The other piece is that irons add another layer of difficulty: in addition to having a smaller window you also have to adjust your visual focus.

Dots are: find a point of focus on the target -> put your dot in front of it. Don't change anything.

Irons are: target focus -> to sight focus -> align sights -> adjust focus (depth to see enough of the target).

Initially, on every successive shot or sight return you have to run through that process until you build a strong grip, muscle memory. Stop anticipating and develop "vision": how much target vs. sight focus at various distances? Until you're able to find vision on a target and know how the sights will behave because you've developed all those things.

Then there's the presentation: in order to break the shot faster you subconsciously know how much "vision" is necessary at say 15yds. All you have to do is get the sight aligned in front of your eyes when you present. If they're not aligned you have to readjust height and/or light running the full vision cycle again so you train to have absolute confidence those sights will come up aligned.

One clear demonstration of this having a flash sight picture for a dot. You stay completely focused on the bridge of "A" in the Alpha zone. Once that dot goes anywhere near it you break the shot.

Where you have to run a vision cycle for dots is when transitioning targets at different depths and/or partials. If you've done that training with irons - for every target - dot it's already there for a dot you just don't have to run the alignment cycle.

 

[Skilly]

Red dots all the way… you’ll be better faster but if you want to get really good irons is the next one to master after.

I think if you’re fast with red dots the index will come naturally with irons. Lining up the sights will be easier. Going from dot to iron is easier than iron to dot

also,...red dots are a sure fire way of detecting an inconsistent and sloppy grip. I'd also add for those of it without perfect vision....SO much easier to get on target.