New Shooters: Start with red dot or irons?

[Mr.Cip]

I’ve been shooting with irons for more than fifty years. Switching to red dots has been somewhat difficult. Finding the dot is more of a struggle as compared to lining up the irons.
With my failing eyes from old age, the dot is clearer.

 

[grandpapeepap]

dry fire practice can help as well

 

[JC2020]

Haha, this is a fun debate.

I fall on the side of red dots first and always.

When I'm on irons, everything looks very steady out to 25 yards. Having a 2MOA red dot bouncing with my heart rate shows me exactly how my presentation is. The front sight is far too big for me when the target is 25 or more yards away. The dot is great for distance on handguns. Inside 7 yards, unless I'm shooting a 3" circle target, I'm not sure there's any difference between irons and a dot.

I still have backup irons, but I've realized that within 7 yards, just practicing over and over means I will just shoot with reasonable accuracy. Having to line up irons always takes longer than a dot during transitions for me.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

I’ve been shooting with irons for more than fifty years. Switching to red dots has been somewhat difficult. Finding the dot is more of a struggle as compared to lining up the irons.
With my failing eyes from old age, the dot is clearer.

How's your grip? Is it the "modern" grip with both thumbs along the same side?

If it's something you're really interested in, get a duplicate gun or slide of/for the same pistol and add optic height irons for cowitnessing.

You can zero the dot to align with the presentation of your irons but it's best if they're really low so you can barely see them. The only thing is that you'll eventually want to remove the rear iron and then the front iron so you stop looking for the irons. You're just using them find a consistent index and train that without changing the angles of the pistol as you present.

 

[gwb251]

I usually start with irons with any firearms I get then move to an optic if I feel like spending money. Doesnt mean starting with optics is bad, since usually shooting more with either one, helps with the other imo. Im just a cheapo

like I said in the other thread I don't even own a gun with backup irons let alone only irons so I cant's say for sure, but I have shot a stage with a dead dot and it was fine. I don't have backup irons on my carry guns either so it actually wouldn't be very practical for me to practice irons from a self defense standpoint either haha. I don't think the mechanics are fundamentally different, it's either a dot or a blurry front sight blob and you pull the trigger. You can't make me shoot a revolver either

What is the issue with a revolver?

 

[gwb251]

Take off your optics; knock your irons off with a hammer; just "point & click". Be a man.

Apparently, no one trains in Point And Shoot anymore.
That was the standard for years , and you know what, it still works..

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Apparently, no one trains in Point And Shoot anymore.
That was the standard for years , and you know what, it still works..

What do you mean by “works”? In what context or applications?

FWIW: There are some ranges (the vast majority of them in my area) that won’t let you shoot without some standard sighting system

 

[gwb251]

What do you mean by “works”? In what context or applications?

FWIW: There are some ranges (the vast majority of them in my area) that won’t let you shoot without some standard sighting system

It is a valid style in close range 2-3 yards or more considering your proficiency.
As you may know, threats appear in a instant..

 

[Deleted member 16735]

What is the issue with a revolver?

too much revolving

 

[john_marsten_1873]

It is a valid style in close range 2-3 yards or more considering your proficiency.
As you may know, threats appear in a instant..

Ok yeah. I’ve done some close quarters pistol training where we have to “earn the draw” by creating space and gaining tactical position.

We learn to shoot from a thumb pectoral index, to compressed ready, to full presentation. But really it’s just creating enough space and fighting for better position to still get sights on target. That’s where I’ll be most accurate and keep others safe.

 

[gwb251]

too much revolving

 

[gwb251]

Ok yeah. I’ve done some close quarters pistol training where we have to “earn the draw” by creating space and gaining tactical position.

We learn to shoot from a thumb pectoral index, to compressed ready, to full presentation. But really it’s just creating enough space and fighting for better position to still get sights on target. That’s where I’ll be most accurate and keep others safe.

Agreed

 

[rodralig]

Why focus on window size? The issue is not the window size, it is the dot itself. The dot reveals more of the shooter’s deficiencies. If your presentation is inconsistent, the dot is not there immediately. If your grip is weak, the dot tracks more erratically in recoil. If you slap the trigger or add unnecessary tension with the firing hand, the dot will jump or drift off target as the shot breaks.

Irons, by comparison, are a much coarser sighting system and require alignment across three planes. Because of that, they can mask those same deficiencies far more easily.


Put simply, the easiest way to think about it is this: a red dot acts like a magnifying glass for your mistakes.

When you use irons, you are lining up the rear sight and front sight, and as long as that picture looks close enough, you can often still make a decent hit. Small movements in the gun are not always obvious. The sights can look acceptable even when your grip, presentation, or trigger press is a little off.

With a red dot, all of that movement is much easier to see. The dot is a MORE precise reference floating on the target, so even small shakes, dips, or side-to-side movement stand out immediately. If the gun moves during the trigger press, you see the dot move. If your grip is inconsistent, you see the dot bounce differently in recoil. If your presentation is off, the dot is not where you expect it to be.

So it is not that the red dot makes you worse. It just makes your movement more visible. Irons can hide some of that. The dot does not. That is why people say dots are more sensitive - they expose problems that were already there.


That said, if you still do not understand why red dots are more precise than irons, I am not sure how else to explain it. For background, I shot irons for years, including in IDPA SSP and USPSA Production, until my farsightedness eventually caught up with me and I transitioned to dots.

This is actually the exact opposite. Both the dot and irons have a window. As long as the dot (imaginary dot for black front iron) for both sighting systems stays somewhere in that window, even on the edges of it, you can still get an A zone hit - obviously, as long as you're centered on POA and you don't add disruptive input before breaking the shot.

Which sighting system has a bigger [literal] window - allowing allowing a larger margin of error?

The other piece is that irons add another layer of difficulty: in addition to having a smaller window you also have to adjust your visual focus.

Dots are: find a point of focus on the target -> put your dot in front of it. Don't change anything.

Irons are: target focus -> to sight focus -> align sights -> adjust focus (depth to see enough of the target).

Initially, on every successive shot or sight return you have to run through that process until you build a strong grip, muscle memory. Stop anticipating and develop "vision": how much target vs. sight focus at various distances? Until you're able to find vision on a target and know how the sights will behave because you've developed all those things.

Then there's the presentation: in order to break the shot faster you subconsciously know how much "vision" is necessary at say 15yds. All you have to do is get the sight aligned in front of your eyes when you present. If they're not aligned you have to readjust height and/or light running the full vision cycle again so you train to have absolute confidence those sights will come up aligned.

One clear demonstration of this having a flash sight picture for a dot. You stay completely focused on the bridge of "A" in the Alpha zone. Once that dot goes anywhere near it you break the shot.

Where you have to run a vision cycle for dots is when transitioning targets at different depths and/or partials. If you've done that training with irons - for every target - dot it's already there for a dot you just don't have to run the alignment cycle.

 

[Gawernator]

Learn both so that you are ready no matter what.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

That said, if you still do not understand why red dots are more precise than irons, I am not sure how else to explain it. For background, I shot irons for years, including in IDPA SSP and USPSA Production, until my farsightedness eventually caught up with me and I transitioned to dots.

Getting to the core of this, the dot system is inherently more precise than irons. My argument is that irons require more precision [handling and manipulation].

For example, a flash sight picture at 10 yards is going to be much faster and easier with a dot because it has a large window and a small moa dot. Even if your presentation angle is off, if you keep that dot anywhere within that [comparatively large] window, you can break the shot as soon as you see a flash of color cross your point of aim. This is just one main reason why dots are undoubtedly faster, the other being the ability to stay target focused.

Additionally, to maintain the same grouping at even 7 yds with irons compared with a dot is a bigger test of skill and development.

My argument is that irons require more work - the biggest being consistent presentation. Therefore I believe that for new shooters specifically, there's more value in starting their shooting journey with irons, being forced to work harder upfront. That work is transferable to shooting with red dots and they'll also be more well-rounded as shooters, overall.

I'm not at all saying that someone can't learn to shoot good with starting with a red dot. But I lean toward starting with the system that does more to force training the fundamentals and I'll opine that iron sights is that system.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

I always like to re-read the title on these threads as they can get off track fairly quickly.
OP specifically asked "Red Dot or Irons for NEW SHOOTERS" not us old farts that have been shooting for 10+ years.

As a new shooter there is so much to learn and get familiar with. Grip form, grip pressure, anticipation, limp wrist, trigger squeeze, mag drop, mag load, racking, jam clearing, follow-up shots, etc. Not to mention shooting for a new shooter can be plain nerve racking when you first start out.

Red Dots are just easier. Put that dot where you want the bullet to land, and if you do all the rest you are good to go. Maybe learn iron sights after you master the rest.

Just my two cents . . .

 

[grandpapeepap]

put the iron sight where you want the bullet to go and do the rest and you are good to go, i dont understand how theres much difference for a new shooter. Especially when a lot of irons have the tritium night sight dots on them too. Not to hate on people who start on red dots but the same can be applied in either scenario. They both help teach the other

 

[Makoman]

I'm firmly in the irons first camp. I feel like a lot of new shooters, if they start with the optic, once they get that optic mounted they are never going to bother learning with irons.

 

[NeilDown]

Irons usually means new shooters learn to shoot with one eye, which is the opposite of red dots.
Switching from irons to red dots often requires a lot of rewiring and relearning.

IMO, if you ever plan to make the move to red dot, it's better to learn with red dot in the first place.
Irons are easy to learn, it's the trigger discipline that's lacking in most new shooters.

 

[jkcerda]

irons will never fail you and most guns IMHO just have irons BUT hand them BOTH and let them pick...
everyone should learn irons , it's ;ile driving a stick, wtf are you going to do if SHTF and your battery runs out?