One in the chamber or no?

[Bobalover209]

I’m not much of a Massad Ayoob fan, but this was actually very enlightening. I like what he had to say about long guns for home defense being kept cruiser ready. But for anyone not willing to watch the whole video, here’s the final verdict for handgun carry (at 7:42): “The answer to the question is chambered. If you’re not comfortable with chambered, revolver.”

Curious why you aren't a fan of Massad Ayoob? He seems extremely experienced, objective, and well regarded in the 2A space.

 

[UserName12345]

I’m not here justifying why carrying one way is better than the other. I’m simply answering a post about whether I carry with 1 in the chamber or not.

As long as I train with the way I carry, isn’t that all that matters?

 

[Brandon Breeze]

I’m not here justifying why carrying one way is better than the other. I’m simply answering a post about whether I carry with 1 in the chamber or not.

As long as I train with the way I carry, isn’t that all that matters?

You can do as you like, obviously.

From folks that are training a LOT, we're simply letting you know that carrying on an empty chamber is putting yourself at a significant disadvantage for no reason.

Take an honest look at pros vs cons.

Pro's (based on what you've said): Might not cause a negligent discharge

Con's: Probably be dead, so even if you did ND it won't matter.

Most folks that train intensely would not carry on an empty chamber. That's because we realize adding in yet another action to your draw in the time of crises takes too much time, even if it goes perfectly. If you create a malfunction during this time, which a lot of folks will, that takes even more time. If you're in a scenario where your firearm needs to be out, it needs to be ready right now, not in a few seconds from now. You're not going to pull your firearm out and walk around with it in a public space just because you think something might be happening... at least I would hope not.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

FWIW my first 2 weeks I carried without even a mag.

Then I stopped carrying for 2 months until I got more training. The mandatory 16 hours isn’t nearly enough imo for such a responsibility and many IA qualifications don’t even require a timed draw.

Finding classes that will actually let you train from concealment is difficult. Luckily, a local [to me] company, Paladin Tactical has a good chunk of CCW (and many other) specific classes beyond just the minimum. They do a lot of scenario based trainings as well where we look at the legality of your actions.

Louie Tirona from Tactical Performance Center also teaches with them. They build pretty high standards through all of their trainings.

If you’re not confident you can manipulate the gun safely, get [more] training.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

As long as I train with the way I carry, isn’t that all that matters?

That depends.

What’s your average draw [time to first shot] from concealment at, say 7 yards?

What’s your average Bill Drill time from concealment?

There’s a difference between training the way you carry and training to win.

 

[magoshands]

Honestly if you're worried about carrying one in the chamber carry a revolver instead.
Sure there are tradeoffs, but a 14lb double action trigger wont just go off in your pocket.
But if you're rocking a ccw it needs to go bang immediately when you clear leather and your sights go on the bad guy. You probably wont have the time to fiddleF- with your sidearm while under the most insane amount of stress in your life.

 

[foexone]

Carrying 1 in the chamber should be eventual goal. I think training will have a lot to do with how u should carry. For me, the earlier years ccw’ing I would carry without 1 in chamber but after time, I got more proficient training, better carry options, etc. that now I’m comfortable with 1 in the chamber. Also, with on-roster firearms, they usually have a safety so this helps getting to the eventual goal of 1 in chamber.. End of the day, carry how you train.

 

[Bobalover209]

I like the seatbelt analogy here. In an emergency you may be able to forsee the accident ahead of time and be able to buckle up prior to the crash, especially if you practice. However, it leaves room for error and unforseen incidents, in which case it always is recommended to buckle up first.

I’m not here justifying why carrying one way is better than the other. I’m simply answering a post about whether I carry with 1 in the chamber or not.

As long as I train with the way I carry, isn’t that all that matters?

 

[Bobalover209]

Honestly if you're worried about carrying one in the chamber carry a revolver instead.
Sure there are tradeoffs, but a 14lb double action trigger wont just go off in your pocket.
But if you're rocking a ccw it needs to go bang immediately when you clear leather and your sights go on the bad guy. You probably wont have the time to fiddleF- with your sidearm while under the most insane amount of stress in your life.

Another alternative to a revolver would be anything with a decocker and dual action/single action capability.

 

[UserName12345]

I guess I’m showing my training level here but until I’ve trained enough and am more comfortable, it’ll be an empty chamber for now. Appreciate all the insight and advice here. A lot to process, might check back in in a few months.

 

[Bobalover209]

I guess I’m showing my training level here but until I’ve trained enough and am more comfortable, it’ll be an empty chamber for now. Appreciate all the insight and advice here. A lot to process, might check back in in a few months.

Honestly, despite what anybody says, at the end of the day it's all up to whatever you are comfortable with. Having a gun with one in the chamber is pretty much universally accepted as best, and having an empty chamber (full mag) is better than no gun.

I will say though that having an empty gun no magazine is more trouble than it's worth, in that case I'd rather carry no gun.

 

[Hit Factor]

Curious why you aren't a fan of Massad Ayoob? He seems extremely experienced, objective, and well regarded in the 2A space.

I think he used to put out a lot of FUD to sell books. Like all the baloney about a trigger job somehow being used against you in court after a legitimate — and intentional — self defense shooting. I think he’s backed off all that now, but the damage was done. FUD Merchants are still peddling that BS all over the internet, and citing him as authority.

 

[Hit Factor]

I have. I trained racking one handed in various positions. Honestly I can watch all the YouTube videos in the world but this is my personal risk vs reward preference. It’s not the end all be all, it’s just a person with a different perspective.

You didn’t watch the video, did you? Just invest 8 minutes of your life and watch it to help inform your decision on something that can literally mean the difference between life and death.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

Internet

If you aren't carrying with a loaded chamber you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

Internet puffery!

OP carry the way you feel comfortable carrying. Only you know what’s best for you. There are MANY scenarios to consider when carrying. Posts like the above are just ridiculous. IMHO.

I don’t carry with one in the chamber. Yes yes I know I will be dead, blah blah blah.

There are millions of people who carry firearms in the US. Many carry in various configurations (chambered no safety, chambered w/safety, not chambered, etc)

The only correct answer is what works for you.

Carry on . . .

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

Curious why you aren't a fan of Massad Ayoob? He seems extremely experienced, objective, and well regarded in the 2A space.

Because he’s not honest about his toupee. LOL

 

[john_marsten_1873]

My father is a retired police detective and when he started carrying semiautomatic pistols he stated he never carried with one in the chamber due to accidental discharge. The training he did allowed him to rack one in seconds. I stated I personally carry one in the chamber due to being in a self defense situation I may not have time or a malfunction happening when I try to put a round in the chamber. Why chance that? Secondly if I invest in a good holster the odds of an accidental discharge due to my negligence is slim to none. What do you think? One in the chamber or no?

I do think this comes down to training. Just because you carry a firearm for your profession doesn’t mean you’re prepared/trained to carry concealed. That’s a very specific type of training.

It took me a few months of deliberate training just to feel comfortable with my trigger discipline.

I’m lucky enough to have trained alongside a lot of LEO’s in just past 1.5 years, both local and special units.

Before I began firearms training I thought LEO/mil == firearms expert . My disappointment in understanding this is very far from reality is with the system. I also learned that, unless you’re in a special unit there’s very little opportunity and resources for firearms training, especially in dynamic contexts.

Also, the scope of responsibility is a lot bigger than just firearms. I have a lot more empathy for them and believe that comparing LEO’s to competitors is very unfair but I digress.

CCW is extremely high-stakes and how you train matters. This isn’t “I prefer to train Crossfit over weightlifting”. It’s not just the risk to yourself and others, it’s putting yourself in the best position to win the fight, both physically and legally.

The minimum training for this should be running better than average par times on common CCW drills and distances. And that doesn’t even cover pre-attack indicators, recognizing and avoiding potential conflict.

 

[dvoncock]

The chance of an ND when the gun is in a proper holster is zero, save for outliers like the p320 or shoddy gunsmith work.

Empty chamber carry originated as a means of easily training military personnel. Militaries around the world never trained their men how to properly carry sidearms as they just were never important enough to, plus most guys with sidearms alone were unlikely to actually need them. Never loading the gun meant there was no round chambered to be cleared at the end of your watch/shift, which meant there was zero chance of someone popping one into the retard bucket.
This continued on to be known as “Israeli carry” (despite basically every army who ever issued an automatic before practicing the same thing) because the Israelis are a conscript force and they issued literally every handgun they could get their hands on and this was the only one size fits all solution. Once solders went home and became cops they carried over the instructions they received foolishly assuming the military training even somewhat resembled. proper training. I’m also going to go out on a limb and guess that your dad was originally issued something DAO or DA/SA which is extra safe as the trigger length alone makes it impossible to go off inadvertently

This is true about so-called Israeli carry. The IDF—like every military on earth—needs procedures for safe handling by teenagers who may have zero prior firearms experience and minimal training. But it’s also worth noting that elite units in the IDF actually carry chambered, because they aren’t comprised of 18-year-old conscripts, which really tells you everything you need to know.

Another important point is the use case. Handguns in the military fulfill a different role than in civilian or law enforcement settings, where pistols are not a secondary or backup weapon. If my primary weapon was a rifle, I might carry a sidearm condition 2 to reduce risk associated with its administrative handling.

Personally, my only concern or unease about carrying chambered is striker fired designs without an external safety, which increased when I started appendix carrying. I know this is less of an issue with modern designs, but I like the comfort of blocking the hammer with my thumb when (re)holstering with a muzzle pointed at my . Fortunately, there are plenty of DA/SA and SAO design to choose from.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

I guess I’m showing my training level here but until I’ve trained enough and am more comfortable, it’ll be an empty chamber for now. Appreciate all the insight and advice here. A lot to process, might check back in in a few months.

Honestly, I’d trust you more than a lot folks I’ve seen if you’re able to recognize you need more training.

If you get good training and continue to practice you’ll look back on this point in time and laugh - as I do now. Good luck!

 

[LoadedM333]

For me, it's always one in the chamber. I've carried striker-fire, DA/SA, 2011 SA only with external safety, now I preferred one in the chamber. The extra seconds to draw and chamber a round took too long even with training. If you worry about ND, as some people have mentioned, get a good holster and belt.

At the range, try training with both scenarios, with dummy round with someone else loaded the mag, and failure to fire. You'll find out which one is best, but this is just training. In a life and death situation, the stress/adrenalin and all kind sh*t will run through your head.

 

[RustyIron]

Curious why you aren't a fan of Massad Ayoob? He seems extremely experienced, objective, and well regarded in the 2A space.

I was a young teen when Ayoob burst onto the scene. I read his articles and believed that he was the real deal, a bona fide gunslinger like Bill Jordan or Elmer Keith. When I got a little older, I realized that Ayoob's actual claim to fame was writing magazine articles and pontificating in the courtroom. His real life experience was serving as a part-time reserve officer in a podunk New Hampshire police department. I'm sure he's a reasonable enough guy and knows things about guns, but as a kid I felt deceived.