P320 repeatable discharge without a screw

[GoldensRule]

“Don’t put a screw into the gun”.

I did not put anything into the gun.

I just don't see how denial will win the hearts and minds of anyone, including juries (maybe dealers with substantial inventories of after market accessories). Sig has a real PR nightmare on their hands and they are screwing the pooch loudly and bloodily. This is right up there with the Takata airbags, Dow Corning breast implants, Monsanto Roundup & Johnson and Johnson baby powder.

Investing in big containers of popcorn to watch this show.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Wait a second, you were able to depress the trigger 1MM, then release the trigger completely then get it to fire by manipulating the slide???? The trigger was NOT depressed AT ALL when the striker released?!?!?! that's a smoking gun! Post a video and that will go viral more than any other video being posted!

Yeah this seems to be the one that is concerning. Pulling triggers 90 something percent to break with screws and ties, doesnt feel like to me anything is being proven. I mean it doesn’t take an engineer to understand how the trigger bar in the frame interacts with the pin in the slide. I’m not that great at analogies but it feels like setting something halfway off the edge of a table then kicking the table, watching it fall and staying this table isn’t safe rather than putting it in the middle where a normal person would.

 

[9mmContagion]

would dirt, grime, lint account for 90% of the trigger pull? Does putting a gun in a holster pull the trigger to 98% or 95% of the action of firing a gun? If it does, I wouldn't want to holster any gun much less an sig. You keep saying "but lint can account for that ~1 -2 mm of space!" while neglecting the fact that you still need to pull the trigger the majority of the way (~6 mm? I'm throwing this number out).

I guess I missed the part where the trigger was pulled the other 90% before the .080” was applied?

 

[D.A.V.I.D.]

Testing lot's of striker-fired guns similar to WGP, they all go off without pulling the trigger.

Thanks to sig the state of California is probably going to be working on banning all striker fired guns.

 

[eaglemike]

There’s a video with one on a manual mill, where it is repeated with ~ 0.080”. That’s just over 2mm or just over 1/16”. Or in my profession which is referred to as a C-Hair

.08 is a ch = carpenter? In machining .002 or .003 is a ch. Depends on color. Sometimes the red or blonde are finer.
ETA: when we talk about puckering up, we are trying to hold .0002 or maybe even less.

The tests all need to show total trigger movement, from start of travel. If they are not counting takeup, IMO, that isn't accurate. Once takeup is completed, there is always a chance it can fire. We can hope we back off if needed, but the finger on the trigger rule is a good one. If one tries to shoot a S&W revolver single action one understands how little movement is needed to fire a gun.

 

[9mmContagion]

.08 is a ch = carpenter? In machining .002 or .003 is a ch. Depends on color. Sometimes the red or blonde are finer.
ETA: when we talk about puckering up, we are trying to hold .0002 or maybe even less.

The tests all need to show total trigger movement, from start of travel. If they are not counting takeup, IMO, that isn't accurate. Once takeup is completed, there is always a chance it can fire. We can hope we back off if needed, but the finger on the trigger rule is a good one. If one tries to shoot a S&W revolver single action one understands how little movement is needed to fire a gun.

100% LOL I use to be a machinist, so I get it! Then moved into construction as a pipe fitter. It was tough to move to such loose tolerances! Red headed C-hairs are usually the finest measurements in my book LOL

But, agreed! I would like to see the same pistol setup on a manual mill, giving trigger contact to discharge distance.

 

[GoldensRule]

.08 is a ch = carpenter? In machining .002 or .003 is a ch. Depends on color. Sometimes the red or blonde are finer.
ETA: when we talk about puckering up, we are trying to hold .0002 or maybe even less.

The tests all need to show total trigger movement, from start of travel. If they are not counting takeup, IMO, that isn't accurate. Once takeup is completed, there is always a chance it can fire. We can hope we back off if needed, but the finger on the trigger rule is a good one. If one tries to shoot a S&W revolver single action one understands how little movement is needed to fire a gun.

CH very rare these days....... Everyone shaves it as bald as a billiard ball, thankfully.

 

[M_N04H]

CH I work in a different profession but I use that too

 

[eaglemike]

100% LOL I use to be a machinist, so I get it! Then moved into construction as a pipe fitter. It was tough to move to such loose tolerances! Red headed C-hairs are usually the finest measurements in my book LOL

But, agreed! I would like to see the same pistol setup on a manual mill, giving trigger contact to discharge distance.

I think there is a chance gun designers keep the rules in mind when they are designing. Takeup does stuff like move the striker block out of the way, and pushing through the wall is moving the sear enough to release the striker.
I'd like to know the real truth about the airman incident. TBH, I think there is something else going on. If people have firearms that don't have manual safeties, or don't use them, and then use the wrong holster, bad things can happen. If the trigger is preloaded by the wrong holster, and the gun is thrown or dropped, is that the guns fault? I've seen enough ND's that I just don't trust the average gun owner that blames the gun.
Yup, RCH was learned early in my career.

 

[9mmContagion]

CH very rare these days....... Everyone shaves it as bald as a billiard ball, thankfully.

I like a little landing strip, but just personal preference…

 

[cali_jazz]

Here's an excellent demo and explanation of a Glock 19 with a cool factory cutaway showing how the striker is released in the same way as the 320 and all striker-fired guns.

 

[GoldensRule]

Here's an excellent demo and explanation of a Glock 19

Got to be careful with this kind of "research" in California. Could see it leading to a removal of many striker fired weapons from the roster. Kind of like throwing the baby (all striker fired weapons) out the the bathwater (P320).

 

[cali_jazz]

Got to be careful with this kind of "research" in California. Could see it leading to a removal of many striker fired weapons from the roster. Kind of like throwing the baby (all striker fired weapons) out the the bathwater (P320).

I don't see that happening since all Roster guns are "rigorously safety tested" according to the State. I have not seen any proof that striker-fired guns in general have any kind of inherent, systemic safety issue. If that were the case we'd be seeing UD's all over the place.

 

[GoldensRule]

I don't see that happening since all Roster guns are "rigorously" safety tested. I have not seen any proof that striker-fired guns in general have any kind of inherent, systemic safety issue. If that were the case we'd be seeing UD's all over the place.

From your fingertips to the eyes of the ether. I hope you're right, I just don't know what would prevent a reassessment of an "on roster" gun due to new evidence of a potential safety flaw. If the people governing CA are as firearms malicious as some people believe, I wouldn't put it past them. We'll see if they delist the P320.

 

[cali_jazz]

From your fingertips to the eyes of the ether. I hope you're right, I just don't know what would prevent a reassessment of an "on roster" gun due to new evidence of a potential safety flaw. If the people governing CA are as firearms malicious as some people believe, I wouldn't put it past them. We'll see if they delist the P320.

If a systemic problem is repeatably proven with the P320 I can definitely see them removing it from the Roster. Any changes to the parts from Sig would require recertification as well. (like the CZ P-01, SP-01, etc).
Keep in mind the financial motive, removing all striker-fired guns from the Roster would result in a huge revenue loss to the State.

 

[ugimports]

If a systemic problem is repeatably proven with the P320 I can definitely see them removing it from the Roster. Any changes to the parts from Sig would require recertification as well. (like the CZ P-01, SP-01, etc).
Keep in mind the financial motive, removing all striker-fired guns from the Roster would result in a huge revenue loss to the State.

They will increase fees to compensate..they don't care..that's why the ammo background check fees went up..they said they couldn't run the program at $1 / transaction since the number of transactions was much lower than they thought it would be. If firearm DROS fees start to decline they'll raise them to "cover costs"...

 

[GoldensRule]

If a systemic problem is repeatably proven with the P320 I can definitely see them removing it from the Roster. Any changes to the parts from Sig would require recertification as well. (like the CZ P-01, SP-01, etc).
Keep in mind the financial motive, removing all striker-fired guns from the Roster would result in a huge revenue loss to the State.

State agencies all over the nation are banning the P320 based upon circumstantial and anecdotal evidence. I don't know why it would be any different for the CADOJ. They could easily update the safety standards and remove any weapon they say doesn't pass. As for the money, I don't know how much they actually net from the sale of striker fired pistols, do you have that number?

I have the impression that the agenda of limiting and reducing the sales of firearms in CA far outweighs their financial concerns. I could be wrong. Do you really put it past them?

 

[cali_jazz]

I don't know how much they actually net from the sale of striker fired pistols, do you have that number?

I have the impression that the agenda of limiting and reducing the sales of firearms in CA far outweighs their financial concerns. I could be wrong. Do you really put it past them?

I have no idea how much the state collects in handgun related taxes, fees, etc. I read the 11% excise tax will net around $65M this year (down from the original $150M estimate). There is a lot of ancillary income from sales of related items, ammo, accessories, business taxes (range fees, FFL fees, licensing fees, etc.). Then there's the costs in terms of legal challenges, public relations, media, etc.
AI doesn't know either, it's final statement:
"In summary, a ban on striker-fired handguns in California would have significant consequences for consumers, manufacturers, and the state as a whole, sparking intense legal and political battles."

Personally I think it's more unlikely than likely the state would take such a draconian approach but I could be wrong as well. We certainly have plenty of irrational, unconstitutional laws on the books already.

 

[GoldensRule]

I have no idea how much the state collects in handgun related taxes, fees, etc. I read the 11% excise tax will net around $65M this year (down from the original $150M estimate). There is a lot of ancillary income from sales of related items, ammo, accessories, business taxes (range fees, FFL fees, licensing fees, etc.). Then there's the costs in terms of legal challenges, public relations, media, etc.
AI doesn't know either, it's final statement:
"In summary, a ban on striker-fired handguns in California would have significant consequences for consumers, manufacturers, and the state as a whole, sparking intense legal and political battles."

Personally I think it's more unlikely than likely the state would take such a draconian approach but I could be wrong as well. We certainly have plenty of irrational, unconstitutional laws on the books already.

I don't really think it will be all of them either but, you never know where this might lead. Maybe requiring manual safeties on all weapons sold. Who knows, I dropped and cracked my crystal ball years ago.