PSA: First Amendment Auditors

[flyingvtard]

Has anyone run across this? Pure insanity outside Draegers in Menlo Park today. I ran across three agitators who were harassing customers at the entrance and also filming them, then threatening to pepper spray me if I got close enough to capture their faces, all while hiding from my phone camera. F--- these guys. Police won't do anything, they (wrongly) claim nothing these guys are doing is illegal. Someone is going to get hurt here, no joke-- they should try this in West Oakland and see how that goes! I've just learned that the technical term for what they are doing is First Amendment Auditing. These guys are trying to provoke people or the police into preventing them from filming in a public place, complete with insults and other provocations. They do this regularly and are coming back, for sure. The officer who took my report said they were getting constant complaints all day about this group, and, this is at least the second time they have done this in the last few months. They appear at random high-end stores across California and try to get content for their YouTube channel by harassing people. The crimes include threatening to use the pepper spray on me while displaying the canister to me-- clearly "using" pepper spray for other than self defense purposes under the law, which is chargeable as a felony (PC 22810(g)(1)). Also harassing customers of a business at its entrance (PC 602.1), occasionally trespassing on the business property (PC 602), threatening to cause me great bodily injury while I was engaged in protected activity (PC 422), and of course disturbing the peace (PC 415). You be the judge: https://www.andrewwatters.com/hall-of-shame/agitators/Draegers.mp4

If you mind your own business they wont bother you. Dont be a karen.

 

[NaboombuLagoon]

 

[adrkwan]

Has anyone run across this? Pure insanity outside Draegers in Menlo Park today. I ran across three agitators who were harassing customers at the entrance and also filming them, then threatening to pepper spray me if I got close enough to capture their faces, all while hiding from my phone camera. F--- these guys. Police won't do anything, they (wrongly) claim nothing these guys are doing is illegal. Someone is going to get hurt here, no joke-- they should try this in West Oakland and see how that goes! I've just learned that the technical term for what they are doing is First Amendment Auditing. These guys are trying to provoke people or the police into preventing them from filming in a public place, complete with insults and other provocations. They do this regularly and are coming back, for sure. The officer who took my report said they were getting constant complaints all day about this group, and, this is at least the second time they have done this in the last few months. They appear at random high-end stores across California and try to get content for their YouTube channel by harassing people. The crimes include threatening to use the pepper spray on me while displaying the canister to me-- clearly "using" pepper spray for other than self defense purposes under the law, which is chargeable as a felony (PC 22810(g)(1)). Also harassing customers of a business at its entrance (PC 602.1), occasionally trespassing on the business property (PC 602), threatening to cause me great bodily injury while I was engaged in protected activity (PC 422), and of course disturbing the peace (PC 415). You be the judge: https://www.andrewwatters.com/hall-of-shame/agitators/Draegers.mp4

Goodluck with your suit, brother. Very creative theory with RICO.

 

[BillSmith]

There is lines the main issue.... Someone can want their info private and their picture to not be taken.... those people should just stay home. There are cameras everywhere.

All these auditors are annoying, that said:
Some of these auditors really try to provoke people and tell them they are taking everyone's picture/License Plate/Vin number for online facial recognition tracking info (complete lie but its to get under peoples skin.
Some stand in front of banks and take pictures and pretend to be cryptic (also to draw attention)
Some like the father and son one will literally walk up and down city centers and take video and when asked they say the are traveling and wanted to take pictures of this beautiful city and people still loose their mind....

Im not the most friendly looking guy and still have people Im not taking pictures of try to get in my face. I can tell from their opening line if I can respectfully tell them I did not take their picture and even if I did I am perfectly allowed too under the first amendment.... or if I need to tell them to go f off.

BONECUTR-

You missed the point of my 'other hand'. There's a difference between what is legal and prudent. I am not speaking of a lack of politeness by photographers leading to vitriolic response or even confrontational response. The people to which I refer are not going to take your advice to just 'stay at home'. A stubborn photographer may not find his/her way home.

Think of it as if the photographer/auditor is riding a motorcycle. The rider can use a cam to document they have the right of way. When they go thump, thump under the wheels of a non-compliant driver, their rights are left.

 

[BONECUTR]

Think of it as if the photographer/auditor is riding a motorcycle. The rider can use a cam to document they have the right of way. When they go thump, thump under the wheels of a non-compliant driver, their rights are left.

Sorry, I still don't understand your analogy. Sounds like a FAFO example but FAFO works both ways. This is why some people who don't understand they have no expectation of privacy get pepper sprayed or worse. Think there was a guy who started punching an auditor and ended up getting stabbed in San Diego a few years ago who was found at fault. In almost every situation the auditors are not help liable.

 

[BillSmith]

Sorry, I still don't understand your analogy. Sounds like a FAFO example but FAFO works both ways. This is why some people who don't understand they have no expectation of privacy get pepper sprayed or worse. Think there was a guy who started punching an auditor and ended up getting stabbed in San Diego a few years ago who was found at fault. In almost every situation the auditors are not help liable.

I am not speaking about the average citizen taking exception to photographers being rubes. Note, I spoke to the normal situation and my view is do not respond. Act only when there is no alternative.

My 'other hand' is referring to what happens when photo/video auditor meets Keyser Söze. In a sense, it is an FA/FO situation. It's just that the offended are very, very good at the FO and are not in turn found out or have sacrificial associates that disappear, if foreign get deported or, if domestic, do time.

 

[BONECUTR]

I am not speaking about the average citizen taking exception to photographers being rubes. Note, I spoke to the normal situation and my view is do not respond. Act only when there is no alternative.

My 'other hand' is referring to what happens when photo/video auditor meets Keyser Söze. In a sense, it is an FA/FO situation. It's just that the offended are very, very good at the FO and are not in turn found out or have sacrificial associates that disappear, if foreign get deported or, if domestic, do time.

Well this is why these people do this in nicer neighborhoods... They are not in Oakland/Compton for a reason....they are dumb not retarded. Well they might be retarded too but not in that sense.

 

[tomrkba]

Has anyone run across this? Pure insanity outside Draegers in Menlo Park today. I ran across three agitators who were harassing customers at the entrance and also filming them, then threatening to pepper spray me if I got close enough to capture their faces, all while hiding from my phone camera. F--- these guys. Police won't do anything, they (wrongly) claim nothing these guys are doing is illegal. Someone is going to get hurt here, no joke-- they should try this in West Oakland and see how that goes! I've just learned that the technical term for what they are doing is First Amendment Auditing. These guys are trying to provoke people or the police into preventing them from filming in a public place, complete with insults and other provocations. They do this regularly and are coming back, for sure. The officer who took my report said they were getting constant complaints all day about this group, and, this is at least the second time they have done this in the last few months. They appear at random high-end stores across California and try to get content for their YouTube channel by harassing people. The crimes include threatening to use the pepper spray on me while displaying the canister to me-- clearly "using" pepper spray for other than self defense purposes under the law, which is chargeable as a felony (PC 22810(g)(1)). Also harassing customers of a business at its entrance (PC 602.1), occasionally trespassing on the business property (PC 602), threatening to cause me great bodily injury while I was engaged in protected activity (PC 422), and of course disturbing the peace (PC 415). You be the judge: https://www.andrewwatters.com/hall-of-shame/agitators/Draegers.mp4

Sounds like you got angry instead of just walking away. Just smile and walk on by.

I’ve always believed that when you carry, you lose your right to have confrontations and arguments with people.

That's just stupid. Of course one can do that. It seems like you cannot have an argument without getting angry.

Whatever "confrontation" means...it's best to avoid ones where people are out of control of their emotions. Confronting a manager about a bad employee is very different from confronting an armed robber.

Just be careful and judicious.

 

[tomrkba]

It's true, I didn't have to go back after exiting the store-- but I don't like people who harass or threaten others for no reason, and I also think the world would be a better place if more people pushed back on this and recorded 1A auditors' identities to help expose them and what they really do. I also can handle any resulting lawsuits in-house, so the litigation angle doesn't bother me. There were people in the store who were genuinely severely distressed by this stunt and everyone was talking about it. As you can see, these guys are terrified of the camera to the point of running away from it when it gets close enough to capture clear images. What actually happened was that the first video I took either did not record properly or got accidentally erased. That's too bad because it was better-- I surprised them by getting pretty close and moving the camera around to get great video of their faces, which no one must have done earlier in the day. The second time they were ready for that. In any case, of course these guys are whacked the F out and folks shouldn't engage, but someone is eventually going to get hurt, and I'm hoping the benefit of capturing the video outweighs the risks. Someone on my X posted that he was there yesterday also and after this, the three guys were shouting at, crowding, and harassing an elderly lady who was just minding her own business as she walked out of the store. Pepper spray certainly hurts a lot, but of course I'm not going to pull a gun on someone who pepper sprays me in this scenario. If they pepper spray me when I'm getting at most 8 feet away from them while merely filming them as they film other people, I don't think I'm the bad guy here or demonstrating a lack of judgment. It's also easy to say what should have been done, but these are fluid situations and this one is so far 90/10 in my network in my favor for how I handled it, especially on the spur of the moment. Part of that is my unfamiliarity with this type of agitator. If I see these guys again, I'll just smile and mind my own business, of course. The police were not helpful, and my report essentially became a public relations matter where they tried to get me to drop it. I can't do that when the suspects are threatening to "mace the out of [me]" while displaying the pepper spray canister and "hurt [me] really badly" for no reason. More people should hold these suspects accountable, and I have no regrets.

Yeah, you took a needless risk and look like a "Karen".

Did you check your trashcan on your phone? The video should be there.

 

[blackbart]

Some of you guys need to learn about the concept of public space, which exists on private property as well.

 

[BillSmith]

Well this is why these people do this in nicer neighborhoods... They are not in Oakland/Compton for a reason....they are dumb not retarded. Well they might be retarded too but not in that sense.

Yes.

I've lived on both sides of 'the tracks'. Shadow of the Cow Palace in San Francisco and a wee bit more of an affluent community on the Peninsula. My point was/is that not all of those in the nicer neighborhoods are...nice.

Have a friend that lives outside of St. Louis. He speaks of, "No one does that in Small Town."

 

[Wolkenflieger]

They're bums that rather bother people in public than work a job. They stir up then try to get lawsuit money. Saddest part is none of them actually care about upholding the constitution

This is the same thing the Westboro Baptist Church does. These are the people who protest military funerals, abortion clinics, gay pride, or anything they don't like. Most of us have seen their inflammatory religiously-motivated signs, one of which is "God hates f*gs".

This is their peculiar interpretation of the of the more troubling aspects of the Bible which nominal Christians tend to ignore or downplay. Yet they can quote chapter and verse from memory to anyone who wanders into their trap. Nominal believers ignorant of these verses can quickly be brought to rage due to intensity and shock of a collision with a member of the WBC.

Some people lose their minds, assault them, and then the Phelps family (many of whom are raised to be lawyers) sue the assailant. It's one of the ways they make money.

Hilariously, some of the Phelps clan have become atheists, and we atheists relish their deconversion stories. They seem remarkably cogent when not under the spell of their former cult leader and indoctrinated siblings. Two notable escapees are Nathan Phelps and Megan Phelps-Roper.

These people aren't stupid, just belligerent, indoctrinated, and cashing in on baiting people into violence. Stoic atheists are their Kryptonite, but hapless triggered believers are their fodder.

 

[raellic]

Thanks again, everyone's comments are helpful and sometimes insightful. As I specifically said in this thread, someone "only" pepper spraying an adult victim does not warrant deadly force. My main concern was this other guy who recklessly said he has "more than pepper spray" and was prepared to use whatever weapon that is on me. And this same group has felony charges pending in Los Angeles County for beating a man at a Post Office. If you watch that video, they put him in a chokehold, stomp on his head, and send him to the hospital. Had I known there was a probability it would go there, of course I would have done less in this scenario-- but keep in mind, this was an ambiguous situation and reasonable minds could disagree over what to do.

Here is the second article that came out: https://www.almanacnews.com/menlo-p...-amendment-auditors-after-menlo-park-dispute/

You can agree with my style or not, but I've received at least a dozen calls and emails expressing support for what I am doing. I can do a case like this in-house at the law firm, and in addition to actually potentially getting a permanent injunction, at least there is a deterrent factor if these guys have to consider being sued as a cost of doing business. The complaint will be amended in the near future with additional detail.

 

[nakatomi]

Here is the second article that came out: https://www.almanacnews.com/menlo-p...-amendment-auditors-after-menlo-park-dispute/

I’m just going off the article and what you posted here, I haven’t read the actual complaint yetnso take this as a preliminary take and not a hard position.

First off I’ll give you credit where it’s due. You didn’t escalate physically and you chose to document it and file suit instead. That’s the right lane esp in a situation like this where these guys are clearly trying to troll for Karen reactions.

That said a couple things don’t land great from the outside looking in. The RICO angle is a stretch. Maybe there’s more in the complaint that supports it comes off a bit overreaching and I think a court is going to be pretty skeptical of that.

Also the re-engagement is something I’d question. If you had already left and then came back to interact with them again it makes me scratch my head. Not saying it kills your case but it does give the other side room to argue you weren’t just a passive party. You know that will be their play.

These basement dwellers have rights under the 1A to film in public and be annoying about it. That alone isn’t illegal. The pepper spray (tear gas) penal issue is the right play IMHO which I see from the article. In CA it’s only for self defense only (even to brandish) so if they were threatening to use it (brandishing) or using it without a real imminent threat that’s where the stronger claims are going to be. This being a penal issue doesn't look good when LEO and DA are not pressing charges. Hope you have more videos of this in your back pocket.

Curious to see how this plays out once it’s actually in court. You put money where your mouth is without DA support so props to you. If you’re able to share a PDF of the complaint I’d definitely like to read it (helps me avoid going to the courts to scan it at the terminal).

 

[adrkwan]

Thanks again, everyone's comments are helpful and sometimes insightful. As I specifically said in this thread, someone "only" pepper spraying an adult victim does not warrant deadly force. My main concern was this other guy who recklessly said he has "more than pepper spray" and was prepared to use whatever weapon that is on me. And this same group has felony charges pending in Los Angeles County for beating a man at a Post Office. If you watch that video, they put him in a chokehold, stomp on his head, and send him to the hospital. Had I known there was a probability it would go there, of course I would have done less in this scenario-- but keep in mind, this was an ambiguous situation and reasonable minds could disagree over what to do.

Here is the second article that came out: https://www.almanacnews.com/menlo-p...-amendment-auditors-after-menlo-park-dispute/

You can agree with my style or not, but I've received at least a dozen calls and emails expressing support for what I am doing. I can do a case like this in-house at the law firm, and in addition to actually potentially getting a permanent injunction, at least there is a deterrent factor if these guys have to consider being sued as a cost of doing business. The complaint will be amended in the near future with additional detail.

Any PR is good PR. Will keep track of this and the TRO appeal.

 

[PlinkyDinky]

And this same group has felony charges pending in Los Angeles County for beating a man at a Post Office. I

Holy . I think they're the same heads who were outside my local PO several months ago; my wife went to ask them, very politely and out of genuine curiosity, what they were doing, and she said they were complete s to her.

Has anyone tried getting a group, holding large sheets or something, and simply standing in front of their cameras? 2 can play their stupid games, and I'd love to see how they'd react to other people exercising their rights to stand around in public spaces.

 

[nakatomi]

Any PR is good PR. Will keep track of this and the TRO appeal.

Sorry this is a long thread, which post mentions the TRO?

 

[Deleted member 6005]

Holy . I think they're the same heads who were outside my local PO several months ago; my wife went to ask them, very politely and out of genuine curiosity, what they were doing, and she said they were complete s to her.

Has anyone tried getting a group, holding large sheets or something, and simply standing in front of their cameras? 2 can play their stupid games, and I'd love to see how they'd react to other people exercising their rights to stand around in public spaces.

bane act california



+7
The Bane Act (California Civil Code § 52.1) is a California state law that allows individuals to sue for damages if their constitutional or statutory rights are violated through coercion, violence, threats of violence, or intimidation. It covers civil rights violations by anyone, including law enforcement misconduct like excessive force or illegal searches.

 

[adrkwan]

Sorry this is a long thread, which post mentions the TRO?

Wasn't on the thread. Just saw it on PACER, TRO denied, up to Ninth on appeal.

 

[nakatomi]

Wasn't on the thread. Just saw it on PACER, TRO denied, up to Ninth on appeal.

Yeah if a TRO is granted any firearms owned by the 1A basement dwellers may be temporarily confiscated at the owner’s expense. This is good for us as courts apply specific legal standards when reviewing these requests which helps reduce the risk of misuse and ensures that such orders are not issued without sufficient justification esp from crazy SJW.