range experience with severe tennis elbow

[Wolkenflieger]

Turmeric has data… even anti cancer.

About Herbs, Botanicals & Other Products | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center

Find evidence-based information from our Integrative Medicine experts about herbs, vitamins, and other dietary supplements.

www.mskcc.org

You can measure whole body inflammation easily (esr and crp) and see if comes down with things like turmeric meriva (or another high bioavailable turmeric formulation like bioperine or Longvida) and boswelia. You were saying?



Oh and here is a meta analysis on acupuncture…

Acupuncture: Effectiveness and Safety

Information about acupuncture, including its safety and effectiveness in treating pain and other conditions.

www.nccih.nih.gov

The anti-cancer claims of Turmeric sounds like total B.S. If it's medicine, why not call it that? Sounds like food-based quackery.

There's no way acupuncture makes any sense as medicine. The entire practice is based on the erroneous notion of "meridian lines" which don't exist in animals at all. It's pseudoscientific quackery.

What about when needles puncture organs or nerves, all for zero actual benefit? This goes against the "First, Do No Harm" (Hippocratic Oath) rule of real medicine, which acupuncture is not. That's why it's called ALT-MED or Complementary Medicine. It's not actual, science-based, evidence-based medicine.

The idea of Qi (insomuch as it's invoked with Acupuncture or other TCM) is complete pseudoscience. Some practitioners even claim to sterilize their needles using Qi, but that's against FDA controls which require fresh needles and no re-used needles for obvious reasons. This is where licensing can at least reduce potential harm.

Double-blinded studies are nearly impossible with acupuncture too, since subjects can tell when the needles are going in, especially in more sensitive areas.

There's always a risk of the thin needles breaking off inside the body.

Major Risks and Reported Incidents

Collapsed Lung (Pneumothorax): Needles placed incorrectly near the upper back, shoulders, or chest wall can puncture the lung lining, allowing air to leak into the chest cavity and requiring emergency hospital care. [1] (https://www.koreaherald.com/article/10372141),
[2](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2010/oct/18/dozens-killed-acupuncture-needles), [3]

Trapped Needles: In rare cases, cheap or improperly handled metal filaments can snap off and become embedded in deep muscle tissue or joints, requiring surgical removal. [1] (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6598534/)

Nerve and Vascular Damage: Deep or sharp pain, burning, or prolonged numbness lasting past 48 hours can indicate that a needle has struck a nerve bundle or a blood vessel.

Infections and Organ Puncture: Unlicensed practitioners or failure to use sterile, single-use disposable packaging can lead to severe bacterial infections, or in extreme historic and unverified outliers, damage to major organs

The placebo effect is minimal, but the risk is too great for a mere placebo effect. Better to pursue evidence-based medicine based on the actual physiology of human or other mammalian bodies.

 

[packy14]

Turmeric has data… even anti cancer.

About Herbs, Botanicals & Other Products | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center

Find evidence-based information from our Integrative Medicine experts about herbs, vitamins, and other dietary supplements.

www.mskcc.org

You can measure whole body inflammation easily (esr and crp) and see if comes down with things like turmeric meriva (or another high bioavailable turmeric formulation like bioperine or Longvida) and boswelia. You were saying?



Oh and here is a meta analysis on acupuncture…

Acupuncture: Effectiveness and Safety

Information about acupuncture, including its safety and effectiveness in treating pain and other conditions.

www.nccih.nih.gov

Are you for real… you clearly didn’t click on about herbs (hosted by memorial Sloan Kettering. Obviously it’s all an adjunctive therapy. That being said turmeric is highly effective for musculoskeletal pain and inflammation as well as liver disease (often inflammation related). You clearly lack much knowledge. Curious what your background is as you speak like someone who thinks they know a lot and yet do not really. Good luck… and better luck to those you advise.

 

[RustVendor]

Are you for real… you clearly didn’t click on about herbs (hosted by memorial Sloan Kettering. You clearly lack much knowledge. Good luck… and better luck to those you advise.

the tricky thing with "alternative" medicines is while they often have an underlying identified mechanism they generally lack a meaningful effectiveness. For instance Glucosamine has long been recommended for any kind of joint ailment, but even after more than 20 years there still isn't data to support it does much of anything. https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/the-latest-on-glucosaminechondroitin-supplements-2016101710391

Curcumin, the active ingredient in tumeric, has shown some anti inflammatory qualities. But to what end? If you have acute inflammation such as swelling after an injury, curcumin isn't going to meaningfully reduce that swelling, especially compared to the common over the counter nsaids. We are also still understanding the role of inflammation, as acute inflammation is part of the healing process but "chronic" inflammation is seen as bad. Chronic inflammation comes from many sources, being overweight, autoimmune diseases, eating trash. But actual bonafide chronic inflammation is also something that is too big a task for curcumin or other dietary antioxidants. People with clinical chronic inflammation need steroids. Generally the studies you see on any dietary antioxidants are very preliminary and are practicing a bit of scientific reductionism, like a study showed that X reduces inflammation in some way and therefore since the thing is generally considered safe then medical practitioners can recommend it for people whose disease isn't advanced enough to be treated with steroids for instance. The problem lies in that these supplements aren't regulated in dosage and effectiveness, any substance that actually works as a drug will have side effects of some kind. Tumeric can actually cause liver failure and this woman actually killed herself from tumeric, and she was reportedly only taking a relatively small amount per day that was generally considered "safe" https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11259472/

All that to say if dietary supplements have a significant effect, you should be very cautious because these things aren't studied well and most likely won't actually do anything for you. Don't forget that the placebo effect is ~20%.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Are you for real… you clearly didn’t click on about herbs (hosted by memorial Sloan Kettering. Obviously it’s all an adjunctive therapy. That being said turmeric is highly effective for musculoskeletal pain and inflammation as well as liver disease (often inflammation related). You clearly lack much knowledge. Curious what your background is as you speak like someone who thinks they know a lot and yet do not really. Good luck… and better luck to those you advise.

From Google searches;

"The Risks of Supplements

Liver Injury: While eating turmeric in food is safe, highly bioavailable concentrated curcumin supplements have become a leading cause of herbal-related liver damage in the United States.

Contaminants: High-dose supplements have also been flagged for containing heavy metals like lead."

--

"While using turmeric as a cooking spice is generally safe, high-dose turmeric and curcumin supplements carry risks including liver injury, digestive upset, and medication interactions."

[1] (https://www.ynhhs.org/articles/supplements-liver-damage),

[2] (https://shorephysiciansgroup.com/th...r-supplements-what-influencers-wont-tell-you/)

[3] (https://www.bhf.org.uk/informations...nutrition/ask-the-expert/turmeric-supplements)

--

Turmeric - LiverTox - NCBI Bookshelf

"A 57 year old woman with recurrent urinary tract infections, migraine headaches, and osteoarthritis developed fatigue, nausea, abdominal pain, and anorexia, followed by itching, dark urine, and jaundice. Because of a recurrence of cystitis, she had received a 7-day course of nitrofurantoin 4 months previously and a 7-day course of cephalexin a few weeks previously. Because of persistence of symptoms, she started an over-the-counter preparation of turmeric (Nature’s Way Turmeric, 500 mg once daily) 2 to 3 weeks before onset of symptoms. She had no history of liver disease, did not drink alcohol, and had no risk factors for viral hepatitis. Her other medications included rizatriptan, salbutamol, vitamin C and D, and a multivitamin. On presentation, her serum bilirubin was 9.1 mg/dL, ALT 1425 U/L, AST 1374 U/L, and alkaline phosphatase 250 U/L and she was admitted to a hospital for evaluation. The INR was 1.3 and albumin 3.7 g/dL. Tests for hepatitis A, B, and C were negative. The ANA was positive (1:640), but SMA and AMA were negative and IgG levels were normal (1170 mg/dL). Abdominal ultrasound showed a right renal stone without hydronephrosis and normal appearing liver without evidence of biliary obstruction or gallstones. A liver biopsy showed acute inflammation and necrosis with eosinophils; plasma cells were not prominent and there was no fibrosis. Turmeric had been stopped and her liver tests improved rapidly without specific therapy (see Table). Serum bilirubin levels fell into the normal range within 6 weeks and aminotransferase levels within 3 months of stopping turmeric. When seen in follow up a year after onset, she was asymptomatic, and all liver tests were normal."
--

I am HIGHLY suspicious of anything called "Integrative Medicine". That means it's not really medicine, it's nonsense integrated into medicine. If it works and has viable efficacy, then why is it called "Integrative Medicine" or "Alt-Med", or "Complementary Medicine"?

These are just nice ways to describe bull, or "remedies" which haven't been proved to work or have been proved NOT to work. Medicine proven to work is just called "medicine".

 

[packy14]

From Google searches;

"The Risks of Supplements

Liver Injury: While eating turmeric in food is safe, highly bioavailable concentrated curcumin supplements have become a leading cause of herbal-related liver damage in the United States.

Contaminants: High-dose supplements have also been flagged for containing heavy metals like lead."

--

"While using turmeric as a cooking spice is generally safe, high-dose turmeric and curcumin supplements carry risks including liver injury, digestive upset, and medication interactions."

[1] (https://www.ynhhs.org/articles/supplements-liver-damage),

[2] (https://shorephysiciansgroup.com/th...r-supplements-what-influencers-wont-tell-you/)

[3] (https://www.bhf.org.uk/informations...nutrition/ask-the-expert/turmeric-supplements)

--

Turmeric - LiverTox - NCBI Bookshelf

"A 57 year old woman with recurrent urinary tract infections, migraine headaches, and osteoarthritis developed fatigue, nausea, abdominal pain, and anorexia, followed by itching, dark urine, and jaundice. Because of a recurrence of cystitis, she had received a 7-day course of nitrofurantoin 4 months previously and a 7-day course of cephalexin a few weeks previously. Because of persistence of symptoms, she started an over-the-counter preparation of turmeric (Nature’s Way Turmeric, 500 mg once daily) 2 to 3 weeks before onset of symptoms. She had no history of liver disease, did not drink alcohol, and had no risk factors for viral hepatitis. Her other medications included rizatriptan, salbutamol, vitamin C and D, and a multivitamin. On presentation, her serum bilirubin was 9.1 mg/dL, ALT 1425 U/L, AST 1374 U/L, and alkaline phosphatase 250 U/L and she was admitted to a hospital for evaluation. The INR was 1.3 and albumin 3.7 g/dL. Tests for hepatitis A, B, and C were negative. The ANA was positive (1:640), but SMA and AMA were negative and IgG levels were normal (1170 mg/dL). Abdominal ultrasound showed a right renal stone without hydronephrosis and normal appearing liver without evidence of biliary obstruction or gallstones. A liver biopsy showed acute inflammation and necrosis with eosinophils; plasma cells were not prominent and there was no fibrosis. Turmeric had been stopped and her liver tests improved rapidly without specific therapy (see Table). Serum bilirubin levels fell into the normal range within 6 weeks and aminotransferase levels within 3 months of stopping turmeric. When seen in follow up a year after onset, she was asymptomatic, and all liver tests were normal."
--

I am HIGHLY suspicious of anything called "Integrative Medicine". That means it's not really medicine, it's nonsense integrated into medicine. If it works and has viable efficacy, then why is it called "Integrative Medicine" or "Alt-Med", or "Complementary Medicine"?

These are just nice ways to describe bull, or "remedies" which haven't been proved to work or have been proved NOT to work. Medicine proven to work is just called "medicine".

I give you pubmed links and you give me google Searches. Seems like the level of your training is shining through. Let me guess… Caribbean med School if an MD? More likely a DO or not a physician. It’s cool, you only know what you know I suppose. I treat sick patients with life threatening disease daily.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I give you pubmed links and you give me google Searches. Seems like the level of your training is shining through. Let me guess… Caribbean med School if an MD? More likely a DO or not a physician. It’s cool, you only know what you know I suppose. I treat sick patients with life threatening disease daily.

What's your title? Naturopath? Chiropractor? Freelance Gynecologist?

You were given good links. They don't all have to be PubMed. Think of them as 'complementary link' since you love complementary medicine so much.

First principles are also a thing. Why on Earth would anyone need INTEGRATIVE medicine when real medicine works? Or, if the new remedy works, why is it still called "Integrated" or "complementary"? These are all weasel words to hide the non-credibility of these so-called "remedies", and if something like turmeric has efficacy, why are you encouraging people to self-diagnose? Since when do doctors "prescribe" turmeric? Sounds like quackery to me. These supplements aren't even FDA-regulated.

 

[RustVendor]

I give you pubmed links and you give me google Searches. Seems like the level of your training is shining through. Let me guess… Caribbean med School if an MD? More likely a DO or not a physician. It’s cool, you only know what you know I suppose. I treat sick patients with life threatening disease daily.

FYI, just because something is on pubmed doesn't make it definitive, it just means it was published. You can find a study for whatever you want, it doesn't inherently mean anything without context and a medical professional interpreting it. There's a big problem lately with pay for play "scientific journals", not saying you are citing one but just that Pubmed isn't a source any more than wikipedia is. Incidentally the MSK herb page does actually list hepatotoxicity on it's page with numerous cited examples such as the one he posted.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

This cartoon about "alt-med" by Tim Minchin is still relevant.

 

[packy14]

What's your title? Naturopath? Chiropractor? Freelance Gynecologist?

You were given good links. They don't all have to be PubMed. Think of them as 'complementary link' since you love complementary medicine so much.

First principles are also a thing. Why on Earth would anyone need INTEGRATIVE medicine when real medicine works? Or, if the new remedy works, why is it still called "Integrated" or "complementary"? These are all weasel words to hide the non-credibility of these so-called "remedies", and if something like turmeric has efficacy, why are you encouraging people to self-diagnose? Since when do doctors "prescribe" turmeric? Sounds like quackery to me. These supplements aren't even FDA-regulated.

My title: Medical Doctor (MD). USA trained MD (actually all in California). Other titles… medical director, national cancer institute principal investigator. What else would you like? I’m waiting for yours.

 

[packy14]

FYI, just because something is on pubmed doesn't make it definitive, it just means it was published. You can find a study for whatever you want, it doesn't inherently mean anything without context and a medical professional interpreting it. There's a big problem lately with pay for play "scientific journals", not saying you are citing one but just that Pubmed isn't a source any more than wikipedia is. Incidentally the MSK herb page does actually list hepatotoxicity on its page with numerous cited examples such as the one he posted.

Agree there are a lot of junk journals. And yes, even green tea can be hepatotoxic! Depends on dose, purity, and inherent human variation of sensitivity. I think anyone on any supplement or prescription drugs should have blood work regularly to monitor for toxicity.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

My title: Medical Doctor (MD). USA trained MD (actually all in California). Other titles… medical director, national cancer institute principle investigator. What else would you like? I’m waiting for yours.

Thank you. Are you readying your argument from authority? Facts are facts. I'm a 3D Artist for the Defense Industry, but I also read a whole lot and am a dedicated skeptic.

Is there any "alt-med" you think is B.S.? Where do you draw the line? How deep does the rabbit hole go?

Is there any evidence-based medicine you think is nonsense?

Is there anything you admit to believing on insufficient evidence?

 

[magoshands]

This cartoon about integrative and alt-med by Tim Minchin is still relevant.

A cartoon is a source now?

There is a reason why its called "practicing medicine" because even when based on scientific double blind studies; medicines, treatment protocols, surgical procedures all get revamped or eliminated when something better comes along, or when a treatment or medication turns out to do more harm than its helping.

As a EMT our trauma protocols change almost yearly as more real world data comes through. Easy example tourniquets and bleeding control. Back in the 80's and 90's those were strongly contradicted except for in hospital use. After GWOT started those protocols changed with the heaps of data they were getting from blast injuries and gunshot wounds.

If you're actually in the medical field you should have know and experienced the scourge of oxycodone. A drug that had been approved by the FDA and had been touted as a none addictive alternative to morphine. But it wasn't and now the treatment protocols are vastly different for oxycodone than they were before.

Im sure there have been plenty of alternative medicinal herbs that have been studied and found to be therapeutic and or later synthesized for mass production.

People have the freedom to choose what kind of medical care they want.
So stop the holier than thou act all it does is make you look like an ignorant tool.

 

[packy14]

Thank you. Are you readying your argument from authority? Facts are facts. I'm a 3D Artist for the Defense Industry, but I also read a whole lot and am a dedicated skeptic.

Is there any "alt-med" you think is B.S.? Where do you draw the line? How deep does the rabbit hole go?

Is there any evidence-based medicine you think is nonsense?

Oh yea… I’m skeptical of naturopaths and chiropractors from what I’ve seen are mostly dangerous. I don’t prescribe turmeric or any supplement but I do recommend different supplements to patients as adjuncts that they can try for given symptoms or side effects. I’m also skeptical that statins are truly safe or helpful so it cuts both ways. I think most health issues come down to poor lifestyle choices and poor diet and lack of exercise… but when a patient sees me… well they have significant issues and no herb is going to fix that.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

A cartoon is a source now?

There is a reason why its called "practicing medicine" because even when based on scientific double blind studies; medicines, treatment protocols, surgical procedures all get revamped or eliminated when something better comes along, or when a treatment or medication turns out to do more harm than its helping.

As a EMT our trauma protocols change almost yearly as more real world data comes through. Easy example tourniquets and bleeding control. Back in the 80's and 90's those were strongly contradicted except for in hospital use. After GWOT started those protocols changed with the heaps of data they were getting from blast injuries and gunshot wounds.

If you're actually in the medical field you should have know and experienced the scourge of oxycodone. A drug that had been approved by the FDA and had been touted as a none addictive alternative to morphine.

Im sure there have been plenty of alternative medicinal herbs that have been studied and found to be therapeutic and or later synthesized for mass production.

People have the freedom to choose what kind of medical care they want.
So stop the holier than thou act all it does is make you look like an ignorant tool.

The cartoon simply makes a good point. Did you actually watch it? Movies can do the same. It's not like everyone reads PubMed to learn life's lessons.

As *an EMT. Indefinite articles matter.

The "holier-than-thou" accusation is a silly Ad Hom. Attack the point if you can, not the person. Name-calling gets you nowhere.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Oh yea… I’m skeptical of naturopaths and chiropractors from what I’ve seen are mostly dangerous. I don’t prescribe turmeric or any supplement but I do recommend different supplements to patients as adjuncts that they can try for given symptoms or side effects. I’m also skeptical that statins are truly safe or helpful so it cuts both ways. I think most health issues come down to poor lifestyle choices and poor diet and lack of exercise… but when a patient sees me… well they have significant issues and no herb is going to fix that.

You sound pretty reasonable overall. Glad you're skeptical of the more obvious "questionable" alt-med practices.

It's one thing to get turmeric from food (great) but I would question anyone trying to self-diagnose and take supplements to target some perceived symptom or malady. A lot of people run into issues with supplements, either because of dose or due to unknown interactions with other drugs. Then, there are undiagnosed underlying conditions one might complicate with supplements. So, I tend not to get too deep into supplements and I avoid alt-med like the plague. This doesn't mean it will never prove useful, but I'll let peer-review take care of that before I jump in as a user or advocate.

I was watching this show about Sue Aikens on the show "Life Below Zero" at her Kavik River Camp Outpost in the Arctic Circle. She whips out the colloidal silver with all kinds of nonsense claims about its efficacy and application for some perceived malady she was describing. I'm surprised she didn't turn blue on camera like Violet Beauregarde.

Of course, the cartoon I linked simply makes the case that any "alt-med" that has proven efficacy simply becomes medicine, controlled for dose and purity, like the bark of the willow tree being synthesized now for aspirin. Thankfully, we don't need to make Willow Bark Tea to resolve headaches or body pain.

The other part where we might agree is the value of placebo (when there are few if any other options) and end-of-life care (with few other options) that appeals to a patient's sense of well-being. I would imagine that this is why people invoke all kinds of rituals as a means of self-soothing and social support.

 

[magoshands]

The cartoon simply makes a good point. Did you actually watch it? Movies can do the same. It's not like everyone reads PubMed to learn life's lessons.

As *an EMT. Indefinite articles matter.

The "holier-than-thou" accusation is a silly Ad Hom. Attack the point if you can, not the person. Name-calling gets you nowhere.

And yet you didn't address my point.
Also nice correction gammer .

Like Dr. Packy14 mentioned above, statins like Lipitor cause liver damage. For some people that is a dealbreaker and they would rather do other treatments for high cholesterol.

America is one 2 countries in the entire world that allows direct pharmaceutical ads on television. In my opinion that has helped perpetuate the myth of the "miracle drug" for common ailments that should be solved with diet exercise and supplements. Not everything can or should be solved with taking handfuls of pills everyday.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

And yet you didn't address my point.
Also nice correction gammer .

Like Dr. Packy14 mentioned above, statins like Lipitor cause liver damage. For some people that is a dealbreaker and they would rather do other treatments for high cholesterol.

*grammar. You don't need to argue on behalf of Packy. He/she is doing just fine on their own.

That said,

Obviously, not everyone should receive the same treatment even if that treatment is used for more acute variants of a given illness.

Someone who is slightly overweight doesn't need stomach-reduction or bypass surgery, even if it's beneficial for someone who's morbidly obese and has little success with diet, exercise, and/or weight-loss drugs (which are quite good now). I never made a case that statins should be used for anyone or everyone, so you're arguing against a strawman.

I've never accepted statins or steroids as a prescription. Some side-effects are not worth the "cure". One always has to do the cost/benefit calculus just as good doctors would do.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

My title: Medical Doctor (MD). USA trained MD (actually all in California). Other titles… medical director, national cancer institute principle investigator. What else would you like? I’m waiting for yours.

Actually that would be *principal investigator, meaning "lead" or "primary". A principle is a law, truth, guideline, e.g., one's principles. Sorry, had to point that out.

 

[packy14]

You sound pretty reasonable overall. Glad you're skeptical of the more obvious "questionable" alt-med practices.

It's one thing to get turmeric from food (great) but I would question anyone trying to self-diagnose and take supplements to target some perceived symptom or malady. A lot of people run into issues with supplements, either because of dose or due to unknown interactions with other drugs. Then, there are undiagnosed underlying conditions one might complicate with supplements. So, I tend not to get too deep into supplements and I avoid alt-med like the plague. This doesn't mean it will never prove useful, but I'll let peer-review take care of that before I jump in as a user or advocate.

I was watching this show about Sue Aikens on the show "Life Below Zero" at her Kavik River Camp Outpost in the Arctic Circle. She whips out the colloidal silver with all kinds of nonsense claims about its efficacy and application for some perceived malady she was describing. I'm surprised she didn't turn blue on camera like Violet Beauregarde.

Of course, the cartoon I linked simply makes the case that any "alt-med" that has proven efficacy simply becomes medicine, controlled for dose and purity, like the bark of the willow tree being synthesized now for aspirin. Thankfully, we don't need to make Willow Bark Tea to resolve headaches or body pain.

The other part where we might agree is the value of placebo (when there are few if any other options) and end-of-life care that appeals to a patient's sense of well-being. I would imagine that this is why people invoke all kinds of rituals as a means of socializing and self-soothing.

That’s pretty funny. Yes the silver users along with the anti parasite drug users are interesting. Silver is harmful, the anti parasite drugs when used appropriately are fine… but won’t fix cancer and are blunt tools when used for inflammation.

Placebo has messed up many a promising trial.. it’s often too powerful. You can count on around 30% response almost always. I prefer to measure efficacy with labs or tumor markers or ctDNA. What someone says anecdotally isn’t trustworthy.

 

[packy14]

Actually that would be *principal investigator, meaning "lead" or "primary". A principle is a law, truth, guideline, e.g., one's principles. Sorry, had to point that out.

Yes indeed my phone autocorrected it to that.