Red Dots Are a Scam?

[rodralig]

Very interesting tests, what are your thoughts? Surprised?

A rebuttal to Ken’s statement:

by Gabe Suarez (Suarez Tactics/Suarez International)...


That said, I’ve done several FoF training, and I’ve seen supposedly competent shooters miss at 5–10 yards under pressure, both with irons and red dots. These were not complete beginners either - FoF class had prerequisites. I’ve also seen plenty of people miss a 3-yard headshot in a hostage-type scenario once stress was added.

Anecdotal? Sure. But still worth mentioning. Take it however you want.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

I did an NRA teacher class this past weekend.
The final test was 45 feet, had to put 16 rounds out of 20 into a 6" group.
3 people did not pass initially, want to guess if they were iron sights or dots? They were all the same.

To be fair a more accurate comparison would be take the same shooter and have them shoot the same firearm with iron sights vs red dots. My CCW class all the instructors (LEOs) had red dots. I do not run red dots on my CCW guns only my range guns. I keep my CCW guns bone stock.

 

[rodralig]

I did an NRA teacher class this past weekend.
The final test was 45 feet, had to put 16 rounds out of 20 into a 6" group.
3 people did not pass initially, want to guess if they were iron sights or dots? They were all the same.

6” group at 15 yards? Was there a time limit?

No time limit, unless the instructor modified the curriculum.

I took the NRA Pistol Instructor class years ago, back before red dots were even really a thing. The shooting test was honestly a joke: a 9-inch paper plate-sized target at 15 yards with no time limit.

Even if they made it 6 inches, with no time limit, that’s still not much of a standard - especially for someone who is supposed to be an instructor.

 

[Jeffro_510]

To be fair a more accurate comparison would be take the same shooter and have them shoot the same firearm with iron sights vs red dots. My CCW class all the instructors (LEOs) had red dots. I do not run red dots on my CCW guns only my range guns. I keep my CCW guns bone stock.

I brought a spare gun, Sig P322 (22lr) with a holosun 407k.
2 of the 3 tried it. 1 failed it again.
1 passed with it. He had never shot with a dot before. He was sold on using a dot though.
The majority of us learned on iron sights im sure, but technology is there and definitely doesnt suck.
I need readers even in my safety glasses these days, lol i prefer dots.
My Ccw qual is literally the hardest in the entire state, i need the dot to do it in time. Both of my carry guns have dots. Eventhough I can shoot with irons, i prefer dots, im a 100x faster with them.

 

[SomeOne]

The same could be said about anything aftermarket. Do we need a dot? No, but it looks good. Do we need a magwell if statisticlly speaking, most self-defense scenarios are less than 10 rounds? No, but does it look cool? Yes. If the guns fire with a stock trigger, why upgrade it? Because we can.

I have a bit different opinion. I did not install reddot for the looks, but for the precision. I am way more accurate with the dot at a distance. Is it a most typical self-defence encounter? Of course it's not. But then again, if we limit our handguns to the average self-defense situation, we can end up with 2.3 round mag limit, right?

 

[aema15]

Fake Internet controversy?

 

[Gawernator]

I saw that pop up last night while doomscrolling but it sounded like clickbait

 

[Gawernator]

someone give me the tl;dr of that vid I aint watching all 15 minutes of it

tl;dr Up close you don't even need irons or a dot

 

[lactoast]

I have not, and I am truly sorry about that. Please do go on.

my serious answer to stay relevant to the topic is that, like ergonomics, irons vs RDS will suit everyone differently based on how they learned, what they practice, and their own physiologies, so the idea that one way is “absolutely positively non negotiably” the right way is silly

I personally feel like I can maintain better target focus using RDS compared to irons, which in my opinion is crucial for any kind of defensive scenario

for an extra can of worms, I don’t run WMLs

 

[Darqhelmet]

my serious answer to stay relevant to the topic is that, like ergonomics, irons vs RDS will suit everyone differently based on how they learned, what they practice, and their own physiologies, so the idea that one way is “absolutely positively non negotiably” the right way is silly

I personally feel like I can maintain better target focus using RDS compared to irons, which in my opinion is crucial for any kind of defensive scenario

for an extra can of worms, I don’t run WMLs

Same. Everyone does what works best for them. I personally don’t see the benefit yet, but still have them to play with and let others try.

I’m not trying to maintain focus on a target in SD, I’m trying to break contact and gtfo. I also learned to point shoot from the waist when I was younger. I’m sure it’s frowned upon nowadays.

I always have a light on me, I don’t have them on carry guns though.

 

[NorCALSpeed]

I did an NRA teacher class this past weekend.
The final test was 45 feet, had to put 16 rounds out of 20 into a 6" group.
3 people did not pass initially, want to guess if they were iron sights or dots? They were all the same.

Somewhat surprises me that people would think they're good enough to instruct without being able to do those shots. Maybe highlights the value of structured practice.

 

[Gawernator]

so the test has 2 people that suck at shooting and a guy who just shoots as fast as he can, and they are all shooting steel so can't see their hits :/

I can't really see irons very well so dots are it for me

Which shooter "sucked"? They were all making hits.

 

[Jeffro_510]

Somewhat surprises me that people would think they're good enough to instruct without being able to do those shots. Maybe highlights the value of structured practice.

For the record, I put out the tightest group. Send them my way

 

[Gawernator]

A rebuttal to Ken’s statement:

by Gabe Suarez (Suarez Tactics/Suarez International)...


That said, I’ve done several FoF training, and I’ve seen supposedly competent shooters miss at 5–10 yards under pressure, both with irons and red dots. These were not complete beginners either - FoF class had prerequisites. I’ve also seen plenty of people miss a 3-yard headshot in a hostage-type scenario once stress was added.

Anecdotal? Sure. But still worth mentioning. Take it however you want.

I did a class with hostage targets once a long time ago.... got a headshot on the hostage lol. In my defense his phone looked like a gun xD
No survivors

 

[GeeQ87]

I have a bit different opinion. I did not install reddot for the looks, but for the precision. I am way more accurate with the dot at a distance. Is it a most typical self-defence encounter? Of course it's not. But then again, if we limit our handguns to the average self-defense situation, we can end up with 2.3 round mag limit, right?

I didn’t install it for looks lol I can shoot both, dot and irons, but faster and more accurate with dot. If I didn't have a dot, I could still hit targets up, but at a longer distance is where the dot shines. I think some are against dots because of the learning curve. I don't shoot a ton and it took time for my eyes to remain target focused as I naturally focused on the dot like with irons. Once I figured that out, I prefer a dot, no doubt.

 

[NorCALSpeed]

I like the simplicity of my irons and wanted to get better with them before moving to a dot, but my aging eyes have set a timer on how long I should put off the upgrade.

 

[mrbieler]

Know plenty of shooters more than capable of handing business out to distance without dots but I think you're pretty foolish if you don't see them as a step up. With my eyes as I get older, I finally have given in. After giving up the front sight a while ago and shooting target focused with my handguns, I finally pulled the trigger on an optics ready carry pistol and will be getting my license amended to add it. Missing at the range is a frustration and gives me things to work on. Missing when I need to hit is something else.

 

[Gawernator]

Decent dots are so cheap now I'm not sure why it's even an argument. It's like a backup camera on a car, they all have them now lol

 

[chiroken007]

I did a class with hostage targets once a long time ago.... got a headshot on the hostage lol. In my defense his phone looked like a gun xD
No survivors

Ok Will Smith. Was the hostage holding a book about quantum physics too? Lol

 

[Gawernator]

Ok Will Smith. Was the hostage holding a book about quantum physics too? Lol

Lmao it was my first handgun ever a XD-40 and I was new to shooting pretty much. Never did a lot of tactical stuff cause I was like 20. I think the scenario was a bank robbery can’t remember lol. But when I walked into a room in the right corner there was a target setup and I domed it lmao. Then realized it was one of the innocents but it was holding a black cell phone lmao. Scared me