Feedback Shotguns???

[HarleyLowRiderST]

It’s all good and we each need to choose what works best for ourselves. For me in my home, I choose to have several Glock 17 in fast access gun safes around the house. I also have my AR in the closet on a quick access mount. The Glock allows me to have a free hand for whatever I need.

Modified guns used to defend is just my take based on various things I have read. Again just my two cents and how I role. I have 3 on my CCW all stock out of the box and they all work for me.

Article

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

If I were to buy a semi auto home defensive shotgun, besides just owning a pump action kel tec ksg, I would buy either the beretta 1301 (non-le model since I don’t want the fixed tighter choke) or the A-300; but prefer the 1301.

However, I would install a magazine extension tube to increase the capacity; to get it to hold more than just 7 for the pre-922r regulation models or 5 for the post-922r regulations.

Comparing the two, 1301 vs a-300, I’m reading the 1301 action is a little smoother. And why I chose beretta 1301 over Benelli m4 is because I’m reading that Benelli m4 is older technology.

However, for both the 1301 or the a-300 I will need to modify the length of pull to fit me by installing a chisel manufacturing fixed stock; so that’s another about $400 on top.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

I had not heard of the SW you mentioned so I looked it up. That is really interesting to me, I also had no idea that a 14+1 capacity shotgun would be legal in California, I assume that's because there is no field swappable magazine?

What other comments do you have about this? What kind of a deal did you get and where did you get it?

View attachment 128717

It’s two separate magazine tubes. That 14 number is actually 7+7.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Please don’t take the below as disrespect. I just have (1) a legitimate question and (2&3) to white knight for my beloved shorty.

First, I’m curious why modification helps a family member make a civil claim. If the use of the firearm was justified, I don’t see how typical shotgun modifications would hurt a defendant’s case. Do you have more context here?

Second, the idea that 5+1 in a shotgun is “low capacity” is the one of the most overblown shotgun myths. Each round of common 00 12 GA buckshot fires NINE 30 caliber projectiles. That means emptying a shotgun loaded to 5+1 is expending 54 projectiles. You’d need the six 10 round magazines for the other firearms mentioned in this post to match that number of projectiles. Serving sizes (I.e. how many presses of the trigger it requires to stop a bad guy’s behavior) are much higher for the other firearms mentioned than for a 12 GA shotgun.

Third - point and shoot is THE biggest shotgun myth. Shotguns should be aimed the same as any other firearm. I think it could be argued that aiming a shotgun is actually more important than for other guns because each press of the trigger expels so many projectiles. If they don’t go into the bad guy, they could go into a lot of unintended people. Shotguns do allow for some imprecision in aiming and can still land some pellets on the intended target, which is a benefit. However, we must me mindful that the rest of those pellets that don’t end up on our intended target do end up somewhere. It is a double edged sword.

From my understanding, the mods just opens up more routes for questioning.

An example are good LEO shoots, if they can’t get them on the criminal lawsuit, they will try to get them on the civil lawsuit; same thing goes for us but we just don’t have an agency backing us up and helping us with settlement hush moneys because grandma or girlfriend is sueing for financial or emotional distress because you took Johnny who was such a caring good father of 5 kids. Their lawyers will dig for information for assets to use as compensation.

Such as why did you need that apex trigger in your handgun, why did you need a laser, and etc.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

It’s all good and we each need to choose what works best for ourselves. For me in my home, I choose to have several Glock 17 in fast access gun safes around the house. I also have my AR in the closet on a quick access mount. The Glock allows me to have a free hand for whatever I need.

Modified guns used to defend is just my take based on various things I have read. Again just my two cents and how I role. I have 3 on my CCW all stock out of the box and they all work for me.

Article

AR-15, the most common firearm in America; especially since home invaders and burglary crews work in groups now instead of by themselves and they are most likely armed.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

From my understanding, the mods just opens up more routes for questioning.

An example are good LEO shoots, if they can’t get them on the criminal lawsuit, they will try to get them on the civil lawsuit; same thing goes for us but we just don’t have an agency backing us up and helping us with settlement hush moneys because grandma or girlfriend is sueing for financial or emotional distress because you took Johnny who was such a caring good father of 5 kids. Their lawyers will dig for information for assets to use as compensation.

Such as why did you need that apex trigger in your handgun, why did you need a laser, and etc.

LE has qualified immunity, if the shoot was legal there's no civil suit.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

LE has qualified immunity, if the shoot was legal there's no civil suit.

Then what’s this that I’m hearing about an LEO that the agency needed to help with settlement money? Maybe it was a bad shoot then.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Then what’s this that I’m hearing about an LEO that the agency needed to help with settlement money? Maybe it was a bad shoot then.

Yeah they have to prove that a constitutional right was infringed to go after cops in a civil suit. They get protections we don't. I don't doubt they still help them pay even when they break the law.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Gang, there are reasons why you do not see any reputable instructors (I.e., instructors that teach at the Thunderstick Summit - look it up if you don’t know) using these dual tube bullpup shotgun designs. The features that distinguish those guns offer solutions to problems that simply don’t exist in practice.

That said, if having a really short, heavy gun that recoils hard and carries a comical number of extra weight, I mean excess ammunition, is what you want, then have at it. Having cool looking guns is totally cool. I just think some people’s priorities are off when selecting a defensive shotgun. I say this as someone who once had a KSG for home defense - it was a sub-optimal selection and I would not advocate for its use in that context. Same with the S&W version.

There was a time that I wanted to install the extra 14 shell carrier that mounts on top of the picatinny rail on the ksg made by hi-tech cc. I eventually ended up deciding against it because of the weight, I was thinking maneuvering with it would be slower, and it would take up too much space in the safe. $140 for 14 more shells; that’s $10 a slot.

hitechcc Hi-Tech's KSG 14-Shell Ammo Carrier (for stock KSG rail)

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

Yeah they have to prove that a constitutional right was infringed to go after cops in a civil suit. They get protections we don't. I don't doubt they still help them pay even when they break the law.

Yeh, I remember listening to the story, it was a decent amount of settlement money. Mods were questioned though; like why did you need this?

 

[BobGBA]

I would buy either the beretta 1301 (non-le model since I don’t want the fixed tighter choke) or the A-300; but prefer the 1301.

The 1301 LE was fixed choke IC, which is considered to be an open choke.
But it is a little tighter than CYL.

What choke would you be running in a 1301 or A300?

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Please don’t take the below as disrespect. I just have (1) a legitimate question and (2&3) to white knight for my beloved shorty.

First, I’m curious why modification helps a family member make a civil claim. If the use of the firearm was justified, I don’t see how typical shotgun modifications would hurt a defendant’s case. Do you have more context here?

Second, the idea that 5+1 in a shotgun is “low capacity” is the one of the most overblown shotgun myths. Each round of common 00 12 GA buckshot fires NINE 30 caliber projectiles. That means emptying a shotgun loaded to 5+1 is expending 54 projectiles. You’d need the six 10 round magazines for the other firearms mentioned in this post to match that number of projectiles. Serving sizes (I.e. how many presses of the trigger it requires to stop a bad guy’s behavior) are much higher for the other firearms mentioned than for a 12 GA shotgun.

Third - point and shoot is THE biggest shotgun myth. Shotguns should be aimed the same as any other firearm. I think it could be argued that aiming a shotgun is actually more important than for other guns because each press of the trigger expels so many projectiles. If they don’t go into the bad guy, they could go into a lot of unintended people. Shotguns do allow for some imprecision in aiming and can still land some pellets on the intended target, which is a benefit. However, we must me mindful that the rest of those pellets that don’t end up on our intended target do end up somewhere. It is a double edged sword.

As for modifications, they can argue that you tried to make it more deadly because you wanted to kill someone. Of course, your defense attorney will counter that argument. Still it has the potential to get the jury thinking of you in a negative light which undoubtedly will make you wonder who did they believe as likely non-gun people. Get the last book that Mas Ayoob wrote about 10 years ago as he talks in more detail about this. I think there were three modifications that your defense attorney really can’t counter: one is those plates on the back that capture the firing pin spring where folks get one that has like the image of the Punisher on it; another was getting the tip of the barrel engraved that says something smile for flash/don’t tread on me; I can’t recall the third. As such, the more stock you keep it, the less things they can argue. In fact, I’ve heard one expert (it may have been Mas but it’s been decades) that if you don’t like the trigger on your particular firearm, rather than modify it, you are better off finding a different firearm type in which you like the stock firearm trigger. Best I can offer. Range toys, knock yourself out on mods. Self defense pistols stock is best is the general rule.

 

[kdub1290]

As for modifications, they can argue that you tried to make it more deadly because you wanted to kill someone. Of course, your defense attorney will counter that argument. Get the last book that Mas Ayoob wrote about 10 years ago as he talks in more detail about this. I think there were three modifications that your defense attorney really can’t counter: one is those plates on the back that capture the firing pin spring where folks get one that has like the image of the Punisher on it; another was getting the tip of the barrel engraved that says something smile for flash/don’t tread on me; I can’t recall the third. As such, the more stock you keep it, the less things they can argue. In fact, I’ve heard one expert (it may have been Mas but it’s been decades) that if you don’t like the trigger on your particular firearm, rather than modify it, you are better off finding a different firearm type in which you like the stock firearm trigger. Best I can offer. Range toys, knock yourself out on mods. Self defense pistols stock is best is the general rule.

I think you’re talking about Massad Ayoob’s book called “Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense.” Luckily, that’s the most recent book I finished. I do recall him discussing how those two modifications for a handgun are just plain stupid. The third thing was those dust covers for ARs with messages on them. I agree that engraving threatening messages or putting symbols onto your firearm is stupid because it does nothing to help you use it effectively and can do a lot of harm in convincing someone that you were of a depraved mind.

He also has a discussion about trigger modifications and disabling safety features. However, it is a large jump to then generalize his advice against a few specific modifications to “don’t perform any modifications to your firearms at all.” He does NOT say that in that book.

Changing the length of pull of your stock so that you can properly shoulder a shotgun is not at all similar to placing a punisher logo backplate in a Glock. Putting sights on a shotgun so that you can aim it better is not at all similar to engraving “Smile and wait for flash” on the muzzle. Placing a high visibility follower in the magazine tube so that it is easier to verify that there is no ammunition in the shotgun is not at all similar to placing a dust cover on an AR that has “You’re F**ked” engraved on it.

The above are just a few examples. There are plenty of modifications that are worth doing to shotguns. That said, modifications to defensive firearms should not be done just for the sake of modification. These guns are not fashion accessories. However, if you can articulate a need that the modification addresses beyond cosmetics and the modification does not somehow make the firearm unsafe, you are probably good to go.

 

[GeeQ87]

I haven’t read his book but read the same in magazine article of his, where he discusses the same thing. Even the dot situation, the state can argue you added it to ensure you kill someone, which can be countered with things like, it’s to improve the accuracy to stop the threat AND ensure nobody else gets hurt since we own every round leaving out firearm. Some things are easier to defend than others.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I haven’t read his book but read the same in magazine article of his, where he discusses the same thing. Even the dot situation, the state can argue you added it to ensure you kill someone, which can be countered with things like, it’s to improve the accuracy to stop the threat AND ensure nobody else gets hurt since we own every round leaving out firearm. Some things are easier to defend than others.

This leads to a side discussion. If something goes to trial it gets very expensive. I think it is well worth getting one of those self defense insurances which will fund both a criminal and civil litigation as well as provide a seven figure sum if found guilty in the civil suit. Some will say they are worthless but I completely disagree. I’ve used my homeowners and car insurance a few times in m life and they pay out. Given the potential expensive legal consequences, the $300 insurance premiums I think are absolutely worth it. Again, go read or watch some of what Mas has said on this topic. Your life, your money, your decision.

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

As for modifications, they can argue that you tried to make it more deadly because you wanted to kill someone. Of course, your defense attorney will counter that argument. Still it has the potential to get the jury thinking of you in a negative light which undoubtedly will make you wonder who did they believe as likely non-gun people. Get the last book that Mas Ayoob wrote about 10 years ago as he talks in more detail about this. I think there were three modifications that your defense attorney really can’t counter: one is those plates on the back that capture the firing pin spring where folks get one that has like the image of the Punisher on it; another was getting the tip of the barrel engraved that says something smile for flash/don’t tread on me; I can’t recall the third. As such, the more stock you keep it, the less things they can argue. In fact, I’ve heard one expert (it may have been Mas but it’s been decades) that if you don’t like the trigger on your particular firearm, rather than modify it, you are better off finding a different firearm type in which you like the stock firearm trigger. Best I can offer. Range toys, knock yourself out on mods. Self defense pistols stock is best is the general rule.

This is my take as well, especially the trigger mod. Any Glock, Sig, S&W, 1911, CZ, etc have a perfectly good trigger and sights for CCW, and all AR15 and Shotguns, have a perfectly acceptable trigger, LOP, and sights out of the box for home defense (IMHO)

In California if you have to use your firearm in home defense or out in public, you will face the scrutiny from the DA even for a good shoot, AND most likely some sort of civil case for damages in many cases. I have CCW Safe insurance for if and when I will need it. I encourage all to get insurance with or without CCW.

Merry Christmas All . . .

 

[HarleyLowRiderST]

I think you’re talking about Massad Ayoob’s book called “Deadly Force: Understanding Your Right to Self Defense.” Luckily, that’s the most recent book I finished. I do recall him discussing how those two modifications for a handgun are just plain stupid. The third thing was those dust covers for ARs with messages on them. I agree that engraving threatening messages or putting symbols onto your firearm is stupid because it does nothing to help you use it effectively and can do a lot of harm in convincing someone that you were of a depraved mind.

He also has a discussion about trigger modifications and disabling safety features. However, it is a large jump to then generalize his advice against a few specific modifications to “don’t perform any modifications to your firearms at all.” He does NOT say that in that book.

Changing the length of pull of your stock so that you can properly shoulder a shotgun is not at all similar to placing a punisher logo backplate in a Glock. Putting sights on a shotgun so that you can aim it better is not at all similar to engraving “Smile and wait for flash” on the muzzle. Placing a high visibility follower in the magazine tube so that it is easier to verify that there is no ammunition in the shotgun is not at all similar to placing a dust cover on an AR that has “You’re F**ked” engraved on it.

The above are just a few examples. There are plenty of modifications that are worth doing to shotguns. That said, modifications to defensive firearms should not be done just for the sake of modification. These guns are not fashion accessories. However, if you can articulate a need that the modification addresses beyond cosmetics and the modification does not somehow make the firearm unsafe, you are probably good to go.

Just for fun . . .

Members of the Jury you can see here the defendant shortened his stock so he could “get a proper shouldering of the Remington/Benelli/Browing shotgun”. We will present evidence (exhibit A) from each manufacturer that the R&D Department made up of experts (See exhibit a.1 of resumes of over 100 firearms engineers) that all 3 manufacturers spent over 3 years to determine the proper LOP for their products,. Then the defendant after watching 100 hours of YouTube videos (see exhibit b) of “Tactical Yahoos, installed (without a proper gunsmith) a aftermarket stock which was shorter for one reason and one reason only. The defendant want to be able to hide the firearm AND to inflict as much damage and terror as possible. If that wasn’t enough to ensure death and destruction, the defendant also installed a “automatic always on deadly laser sighting system” for fast target acquisition to ensure the first shot would fired as soon as possible. These deadly laser systems are also able to shoot at distances of 100-200 yards away. Members of the jury that is TWO yes TWO football fields!

Members of the Jury (lawyer hands old lady juror a tissue) this weapon was bought, modified, and used on these poor boys just trying to feed their families. We demand justice in the form of a $25M settlement for lost wages and another $50m for pain and suffering.

If the laser fits you must convict!

 

[kdub1290]

From my understanding, the mods just opens up more routes for questioning.

An example are good LEO shoots, if they can’t get them on the criminal lawsuit, they will try to get them on the civil lawsuit; same thing goes for us but we just don’t have an agency backing us up and helping us with settlement hush moneys because grandma or girlfriend is sueing for financial or emotional distress because you took Johnny who was such a caring good father of 5 kids. Their lawyers will dig for information for assets to use as compensation.

Such as why did you need that apex trigger in your handgun, why did you need a laser, and etc.

If the legitimate purpose the modifications
serve is easy to explain and understand, I think this is generally a non issue. It costs money to bring a lawsuit that you don’t win. Most attorneys aren’t going to take a case for a complainant who’s only argument as to what was wrong was that there was [pick legitimate modification to/accessory on] on the gun that this person used in an otherwise lawful use of self defense.

The problems arise when the modification serves no purpose or when the person accidentally shoots someone and they have certain modifications to their gun that make it easier to inadvertently fire.

I’m tired of typing at this point, but see my post above to another user for more examples of (IMO) legitimate modifications and how they differ from stupid modifications.

Just for fun . . .

Members of the Jury you can see here the defendant shortened his stock so he could “get a proper shouldering of the Remington/Benelli/Browing shotgun”. We will present evidence (exhibit A) from each manufacturer that the R&D Department made up of experts (See exhibit a.1 of resumes of over 100 firearms engineers) that all 3 manufacturers spent over 3 years to determine the proper LOP for their products,. Then the defendant after watching 100 hours of YouTube videos (see exhibit b) of “Tactical Yahoos, installed (without a proper gunsmith) a aftermarket stock which was shorter for one reason and one reason only. The defendant want to be able to hide the firearm AND to inflict as much damage and terror as possible. If that wasn’t enough to ensure death and destruction, the defendant also installed a “automatic always on deadly laser sighting system” for fast target acquisition to ensure the first shot would fired as soon as possible. These deadly laser systems are also able to shoot at distances of 100-200 yards away. Members of the jury that is TWO yes TWO football fields!

Members of the Jury (lawyer hands old lady juror a tissue) this weapon was bought, modified, and used on these poor boys just trying to feed their families. We demand justice in the form of a $25M settlement for lost wages and another $50m for pain and suffering.

If the laser fits you must convict!

lololol - case closed. Bravo!

 

[skb720]

Get a semi auto and 500 rounds of light recoil 2-3/4" 00-buck and train and run through different drills. 00-buck or even #4 buck shots in a pump is too much recoil for even experienced shooters. In an emergency situations, you need to handle confidently your tool and not be surprised by excessive recoil.

 

[2muchsoysauce4allthisrice]

The 1301 LE was fixed choke IC, which is considered to be an open choke.
But it is a little tighter than CYL.

What choke would you be running in a 1301 or A300?

I was thinking just a cylinder would be fine. Close quarters, depending on the load, 00 or #4 buck should be decently tight already.

Why do they consider IC to be open choke?