SSE FIREARMS

[five.five-six]

Anyways, do you talk about gay whenever someone doesn't do as you think? Must be projection.

A catfish is gonna catfish

 

[adrkwan]

Here’s the thing. I honestly hope nobody goes to jail over strictly a SSE conversion…. But we really need a test case and I’m not willing to volunteer.

I don't think you need to volunteer/commit a SSE conversion and incur potential criminal liability. You could raise a void-for-vagueness challenge or something to that effect. Or you could be an FFL that sues for clarity because you plan to open a business to do SSE conversions.

I think both sides know there are issues with the law as drafted and both sides are avoiding having to deal with this before a Court. Sometimes gray is better than black or white.

 

[gorgothmog]

@five.five-six and @909gunner -

I'm not scolding you guys here, but I'm letting you know that this discussion is EXACTLY what the Cal DoJ and Everytown want every gun owner to have with themselves whenever they handle a firearm. It's done on purpose, and this continued discussion perpetuates the fear of government control, which has downstream effects from other forum members reading your posts, to the smallest crevices of your own subconscious. Just look at the cultural differences between different gun forums. You can see how much of a footprint the Cal DoJ has in the way we view and live around guns. The laws have shaped California gun culture, and these endless replies are the proof of how effective Everytown has been.

So you can live in absolute fear and subservience by not getting a Platypus, or you can actually participate and own an SSE firearm yourselves. The more SSE owners there are, the bigger the problem becomes for the Cal DoJ or the State of California to regulate, prosecute, or legislate into non-existence.

 

[five.five-six]

I don't think you need to volunteer/commit a SSE conversion and incur potential criminal liability. You could raise a void-for-vagueness challenge or something to that effect. Or you could be an FFL that sues for clarity because you plan to open a business to do SSE conversions.

I think both sides know there are issues with the law as drafted and both sides are avoiding having to deal with this before a Court. Sometimes gray is better than black or white.

That’s kinda what franklin armory did to get their CA7 on the roster, if memory serves me right.


Either way, test case is a distinct path to clarity and I do not want to volunteer.

What the “it’s legal, you idiots!” zealots are missing is that you have to buy a ticket before you can with the lottery. Some people may be hesitant to buy a ticket to that lottery. Some people may have more at risk, other people may have less at risk or may see greater value in an AR pistol. For me, it’s a novelty and I have 4 mouths and 3 tuitions depending on me. IMO, it’s probably irresponsible for me to take low reward risks. Even if the risk is low.

I’m considering buying a placeholder gun or guns for when / if the winning draw comes in.

 

[909gunner]

@five.five-six and @909gunner -

I'm not scolding you guys here, but I'm letting you know that this discussion is EXACTLY what the Cal DoJ and Everytown want every gun owner to have with themselves whenever they handle a firearm. It's done on purpose, and this continued discussion perpetuates the fear of government control, which has downstream effects from other forum members reading your posts, to the smallest crevices of your own subconscious. Just look at the cultural differences between different gun forums. You can see how much of a footprint the Cal DoJ has in the way we view and live around guns. The laws have shaped California gun culture, and these endless replies are the proof of how effective Everytown has been.

So you can live in absolute fear and subservience by not getting a Platypus, or you can actually participate and own an SSE firearm yourselves. The more SSE owners there are, the bigger the problem becomes for the Cal DoJ or the State of California to regulate, prosecute, or legislate into non-existence.

Never scared to own one and swap uppers the fact that people are converting to semi and changing paper work could be manufacturing from their view points all I’m saying

 

[909gunner]

That’s kinda what franklin armory did to get their CA7 on the roster, if memory serves me right.


Either way, test case is a distinct path to clarity and I do not want to volunteer.

What the “it’s legal, you idiots!” zealots are missing is that you have to buy a ticket before you can with the lottery. Some people may be hesitant to buy a ticket to that lottery. Some people may have more at risk, other people may have less at risk or may see greater value in an AR pistol. For me, it’s a novelty and I have 4 mouths and 3 tuitions depending on me. IMO, it’s probably irresponsible for me to take low reward risks. Even if the risk is low.

I’m considering buying a placeholder gun or guns for when / if the winning draw comes in.

Exactly

 

[weaverftw]

@five.five-six and @909gunner -

I'm not scolding you guys here, but I'm letting you know that this discussion is EXACTLY what the Cal DoJ and Everytown want every gun owner to have with themselves whenever they handle a firearm. It's done on purpose, and this continued discussion perpetuates the fear of government control, which has downstream effects from other forum members reading your posts, to the smallest crevices of your own subconscious. Just look at the cultural differences between different gun forums. You can see how much of a footprint the Cal DoJ has in the way we view and live around guns. The laws have shaped California gun culture, and these endless replies are the proof of how effective Everytown has been.

So you can live in absolute fear and subservience by not getting a Platypus, or you can actually participate and own an SSE firearm yourselves. The more SSE owners there are, the bigger the problem becomes for the Cal DoJ or the State of California to regulate, prosecute, or legislate into non-existence.

Forgive my ignorance but what is this “Everytown” that keeps getting mentioned?

 

[BONECUTR]

This post has a lot of back and forth.... Ill tell you my input from a dealer who has been doing SSE's for over 10 years.

The DOJ has always tried to hint that turning them semi auto is not legal.... but they choose the word "may" for a reason. If it was a illegal they would just cite the PC you are breaking. By taking your on Roster firearm and putting an optic on it "may" be considered manufacturing an unsafe gun since it was not certified for sale in that configuration.

If you ever press them for an answer they resort to that, "we leave it up the the 58 DA's"

They are just trying to scare people from doing it. That's why some people record themselves making it semi auto in AZ before coming back in.....

I do agree that most people who by SSE guns have no idea about anything that happening or how it works.

 

[909gunner]

This post has a lot of back and forth.... Ill tell you my input from a dealer who has been doing SSE's for over 10 years.

The DOJ has always tried to hint that turning them semi auto is not legal.... but they choose the word "may" for a reason. If it was a illegal they would just cite the PC you are breaking. By taking your on Roster firearm and putting an optic on it "may" be considered manufacturing an unsafe gun since it was not certified for sale in that configuration.

If you ever press them for an answer they resort to that, "we leave it up the the 58 DA's"

They are just trying to scare people from doing it. That's why some people record themselves making it semi auto in AZ before coming back in.....

I do agree that most people who by SSE guns have no idea about anything that happening or how it works.

Appreciate the input from a ffl
So you take sse and retransfer as semi in Cali? Not talking about the single shots on roster.

 

[five.five-six]

Forgive my ignorance but what is this “Everytown” that keeps getting mentioned?

Bloomberg financed Brady with a 100 shot nitrus.

 

[BONECUTR]

Appreciate the input from a ffl
So you take sse and retransfer as semi in Cali? Not talking about the single shots on roster.

Dealers are required to facilitate PPT's. If someone brings in a firearm thats semi its being DROS'd as a semi. Im only required to ask if an off roster was DROS'd via Law Enforcement exemption and what tier law enforcement it was.

Two people walk in with a lower and tell me its a semi auto pistol lower I don't have any legal obligation to verify that. They are the ones that sign the DROS under penalty of purgury,

 

[909gunner]

Dealers are required to facilitate PPT's. If someone brings in a firearm thats semi its being DROS'd as a semi. Im only required to ask if an off roster was DROS'd via Law Enforcement exemption and what tier law enforcement it was.

Two people walk in with a lower and tell me its a semi auto pistol lower I don't have any legal obligation to verify that. They are the ones that sign the DROS under penalty of purgury,

That makes perfect sense being the owner is liable not the ffl they sign the paper work
I’ve had semi auto purchased and they checked to see if the paper work said semi auto as well as it being my name on the papers.
So with what your saying you do it because your not liable the person selling the gun is. That’s what I’m not risking

 

[BONECUTR]

That makes perfect sense being the owner is liable not the ffl they sign the paper work
I’ve had semi auto purchased and they checked to see if the paper work said semi auto as well as it being my name on the papers.
So with what your saying you do it because your not liable the person selling the gun is. That’s what I’m not risking

Not everyone has paperwork for prior purchases...A DROS is a Dealer Record Of Sale and can be updated/cancelled ect. So the info on it doesn't mean its valid.
There are other ways for someone to lawfully have it..... New Resident import, Operation of Law, where a DROS isn't available at all.

Dealer to Buyer 1 SSE.
PPT Buyer 1 to Buyer 2 Semi auto.

The CADOJ can assume buyer 1 "may" of made and unsafe handgun before selling to buyer 2 but they would not only need to prove thats a crime (that they can't seem to cite the PC that is violated) and that buyer 1 committed said crime.

What if a store did it....or it was done out of state....

Im not saying there is zero chance anything will ever happen to anyone in CA over this but.....its been going on for 15ish years or more with no one ever having an issue.

 

[909gunner]

Not everyone has paperwork for prior purchases...A DROS is a Dealer Record Of Sale and can be updated/cancelled ect. So the info on it doesn't mean its valid.
There are other ways for someone to lawfully have it..... New Resident import, Operation of Law, where a DROS isn't available at all.

Dealer to Buyer 1 SSE.
PPT Buyer 1 to Buyer 2 Semi auto.

The CADOJ can assume buyer 1 "may" of made and unsafe handgun before selling to buyer 2 but they would not only need to prove thats a crime (that they can't seem to cite the PC that is violated) and that buyer 1 committed said crime.

What if a store did it....or it was done out of state....

Im not saying there is zero chance anything will ever happen to anyone in CA over this but.....its been going on for 15ish years or more with no one ever having an issue.

So what if someone comes in with a firearm that was once a single shot exempt, and it says so on the paperwork that you asked for proof of ownership but they have a semi auto upper on it I understand you will dros this as the way the gun is but just doesn’t make sense if it’s a sse on paper and you dros as semi crazy how it gets passed after 10 day and ready for pick up. That means doj approved it am I correct?

 

[gorgothmog]

Dealers are required to facilitate PPT's. If someone brings in a firearm thats semi its being DROS'd as a semi. Im only required to ask if an off roster was DROS'd via Law Enforcement exemption and what tier law enforcement it was.

Two people walk in with a lower and tell me its a semi auto pistol lower I don't have any legal obligation to verify that. They are the ones that sign the DROS under penalty of purgury,

Very interesting. This goes with what I've been saying: transfer risk to the gun owner at the time of transaction.

 

[BONECUTR]

So what if someone comes in with a firearm that was once a single shot exempt, and it says so on the paperwork that you asked for proof of ownership but they have a semi auto upper on it I understand you will dros this as the way the gun is but just doesn’t make sense if it’s a sse on paper and you dros as semi crazy how it gets passed after 10 day and ready for pick up. That means doj approved it am I correct?

Why would I ask for proof of ownership? What is proof of ownership? A DROS is not proof of ownership. It means absolutely nothing to a dealer.
Again, two CA resident walk in and request a PPT the store has to do it as long as the firearm is CA compliant.
The CADOJ is approving the buyer not necessarily the configuration of the firearm.

Again you need to look at the CADOJ veribage. :

may also be considered manufacturing an unsafe handgun.:

Does that mean if a person paints a on roster firearm that they may of manufactured an unsafe handgun since it was not approved like that???

Based on the CADOJ's wording yes.

 

[psun786]

Does that mean if a person paints a on roster firearm that they may of manufactured an unsafe handgun since it was not approved like that???

Based on the CADOJ's wording yes.

This pretty much nails it. An SSE/semi conversion is no more considered “manufacturing an unsafe handgun” than simply painting a firearm under the current penal code. It’s likely to remain that way unless and until there’s a test case addressing either painting or SSE/semi conversions.

 

[BONECUTR]

This pretty much nails it. An SSE/semi conversion is no more considered “manufacturing an unsafe handgun” than simply painting a firearm under the current penal code. It’s likely to remain that way unless and until there’s a test case addressing either painting or SSE/semi conversions.

I agree, keep in mine for a dealer trying to sell on roster firearms there can be no change from how it was tested no matter how subtle except in CADOJ wording of approved with or without night sights.

Paint, Grip tape, Optic cut, Non factory trigger, Extended controls, internal springs, Even the method of finish. CADOJ has ripped guns from the roster after the smallest of changes. These firearms are considered unsafe handguns still.

If they are going after SSE guns the first argument in court is going to be it would also apply to all those changes. Since a dealer couldn't sell them that was it must be just as bad.

 

[BigBlaze]

So what if someone comes in with a firearm that was once a single shot exempt, and it says so on the paperwork that you asked for proof of ownership but they have a semi auto upper on it I understand you will dros this as the way the gun is but just doesn’t make sense if it’s a sse on paper and you dros as semi crazy how it gets passed after 10 day and ready for pick up. That means doj approved it am I correct?

FFL's don't ask for proof of ownership from a seller during a PPT. The only thing the CADOJ cares about is if the buyer is prohibited from owning a firearm and that the firearm is registered to the new owner.

 

[Hit Factor]

FFL's don't ask for proof of ownership from a seller during a PPT. The only thing the CADOJ cares about is if the buyer is prohibited from owning a firearm and that the firearm is registered to the new owner.

And if the gun was reported as stolen. If not, anyone can sell it.