What will Glock do in California?

[Route66ShootingSportsPark]

The simple answer is that some amalgamation of the modular design of the 320 combined with the exponential possibilities of parts combination from OEM and aftermarket multiplied by the QC/Tolerance stacking of those parts have produced a situation where the gun simply lost most of its trust in the highstakes game of life, death and liability.

The simple answer is that some amalgamation of the modular design of the 320 combined with the exponential possibilities of parts combination from OEM and aftermarket multiplied by the QC/Tolerance stacking of those parts have produced a situation where the gun simply lost most of its trust in the highstakes game of life, death and liability.

Nothing like a clip montage to show nothing

 

[Route66ShootingSportsPark]

I don't expect anything from Sig. I don't even know for sure whether the P320 does or doesn't have a ND problem. And honestly, I don't need to know, since I don't own a polymer Sig. But the chintzy advertising campaign that Scott participates in is laughable.

And before anyone accuses me of being an Sig hater: My favorite pistols say "SIG" on them. I've posted pictures of them here and there

You guys are the greatest... I love any discussion is me advertising.

 

[Pythonfan]

9 pages in and I was questioning what I initially clicked on. Had to reread the title.

Its getting lame that so many threads seem to devolve into sig p320 heated debates.

We are talking about Glocks here gentlemen.

Wonder if the glock gen Vs new triggers will ND in duty holsters like the......jka.

I'm hoping Glock will get a 19c mos, some 26x variants, 48xc mos, and a 43xc mos on the roster. Those would be sweet shooters.

 

[millenialshooter83]

Agreed. I have been eyeing the G47.5 so I'm hoping the V models will bring over a CA version. I was thinking of buying the aftermarket parts slowly and in advance. But with AB1236 and not knowing how the V models will greatly differ, I can't buy anything without risking the loss of an incompatible part.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Nothing like a clip montage to show nothing

what exactly is your goal here, to lose business and make people think you are a jerk?

 

[D00DST3R]

Agreed. I have been eyeing the G47.5 so I'm hoping the V models will bring over a CA version. I was thinking of buying the aftermarket parts slowly and in advance. But with AB1236 and not knowing how the V models will greatly differ, I can't buy anything without risking the loss of an incompatible part.

I share the same thought on this, and hopefully Glock brings over a 34V for CA

 

[Tere_Hanges]

Agreed. I have been eyeing the G47.5 so I'm hoping the V models will bring over a CA version. I was thinking of buying the aftermarket parts slowly and in advance. But with AB1236 and not knowing how the V models will greatly differ, I can't buy anything without risking the loss of an incompatible part.

There aren't any aftermarket V parts yet, so it's not even possible for you to buy them in advance. It's safe to assume that previous gen sights and mags will be compatible. Probably barrels too. Gen 3 Glock 19 and Gen 5 Glock 19/19x/45 barrels are interchangeable.

From my understanding, as far as looks and functionality goes, the V will essentially be a Gen 5 that doesn't accept an illegal switch. If I can basically get a Gen 5, then I'm all in. It's long overdue for Glock to design an updated model that can be sold in CA.

 

[millenialshooter83]

There aren't any aftermarket V parts yet, so it's not even possible for you to buy them in advance. It's safe to assume that previous gen sights and mags will be compatible. Probably barrels too. Gen 3 Glock 19 and Gen 5 Glock 19/19x/45 barrels are interchangeable.

From my understanding, as far as looks and functionality goes, the V will essentially be a Gen 5 that doesn't accept an illegal switch. If I can basically get a Gen 5, then I'm all in. It's long overdue for Glock to design an updated model that can be sold in CA.

I wouldn't call it 'safe' to assume.

I ran into a similar issue when I bought the Walther PDP California version. I assumed it was 'safe' to buy all the aftermarket parts beforehand. And for the most part everything was compatible by the time it arrived. However the Magazine Disconnect Safety prevented me from installing a DPT trigger which I had also bought in advance with R66. Luckily they were understanding of the situation and allowed me to return the trigger and use the credit towards the cost of the gun.

Never doing that again.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

The simple answer is that some amalgamation of the modular design of the 320 combined with the exponential possibilities of parts combination from OEM and aftermarket multiplied by the QC/Tolerance stacking of those parts have produced a situation where the gun simply lost most of its trust in the highstakes game of life, death and liability.

I mean, that’s easy. If you’re mishandling or making modifications to any firearm you’re responsible for the outcome.

I’ve yet to meet a P320 owner (who actually uses it) who is scared of their pistol. My experience is that the lost “trust” is primarily among those who aren’t regular P320 users/owners. I’ve met many people at this point who have ND’d, claiming they didn’t touch the trigger and blaming then blaming 0.5lb trigger they just installed.

It reminds me of the “guns are bad/scary” folks who for many become “this is fun!” people after a trip to a [good] range.

But still, the fact is that there is no definitive proof P320’s are susceptible malfunction causing AD’s. They very well could be. But there is no definitive proof, only claims.

 

[ShootFirstFirster]

Agreed. I have been eyeing the G47.5 so I'm hoping the V models will bring over a CA version. I was thinking of buying the aftermarket parts slowly and in advance. But with AB1236 and not knowing how the V models will greatly differ, I can't buy anything without risking the loss of an incompatible par

I mean, that’s easy. If you’re mishandling or making modifications to any firearm you’re responsible for the outcome.

I’ve yet to meet a P320 owner (who actually uses it) who is scared of their pistol. My experience is that the lost “trust” is primarily among those who aren’t regular P320 users/owners. I’ve met many people at this point who have ND’d, claiming they didn’t touch the trigger and blaming then blaming 0.5lb trigger they just installed.

It reminds me of the “guns are bad/scary” folks who for many become “this is fun!” people after a trip to a [good] range.

But still, the fact is that there is no definitive proof P320’s are susceptible malfunction causing AD’s. They very well could be. But there is no definitive proof, only claims.

Theres been a mass exodus of professional users. Line PD's Line SD's, SWAT Teams, Professional shooters. However you want to justify your use is on you. Its irrelevant to me. I've never considered the platform ever since it failed my department's testing protocol.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I mean, that’s easy. If you’re mishandling or making modifications to any firearm you’re responsible for the outcome.

I’ve yet to meet a P320 owner (who actually uses it) who is scared of their pistol. My experience is that the lost “trust” is primarily among those who aren’t regular P320 users/owners. I’ve met many people at this point who have ND’d, claiming they didn’t touch the trigger and blaming then blaming 0.5lb trigger they just installed.

It reminds me of the “guns are bad/scary” folks who for many become “this is fun!” people after a trip to a [good] range.

But still, the fact is that there is no definitive proof P320’s are susceptible malfunction causing AD’s. They very well could be. But there is no definitive proof, only claims.

Ive met a ton in real life that sold theirs because they don't trust it, most of them really liked it too. It's not about definitive proof, the burden of proof is on Sig at this point. It's more than claims though, when it happens in a LE department there are investigations to a level much higher than a civilian occurrence, there's body cam footage etc. there's actually quite a bit of evidence that something is wrong including videos of guns going off in holsters, including just this past July here in California. Watch the video, the gun goes off in the holster. https://fox40.com/news/local-news/s...ccidently-shoots-self-in-leg-at-ceres-school/

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Theres been a mass exodus of professional users. Line PD's Line SD's, SWAT Teams, Professional shooters. However you want to justify your use is on you. Its irrelevant to me. I've never considered the platform ever since it failed my department's testing protocol.

Sure! But there’s many professionals and agencies that still use it. I know folks who are even upset that their departments have banned it or who have fought bans - especially after the airman was charged.

And there is still no definitive proof that P320’s are susceptible to AD’s - without negligence or intention. It’s everyone claiming that x influencer or friends, cousins, uncle saw the trigger malfunction while it was holstered or x YouTuber made it go off - by using a screw or tool to stage the trigger.

 

[cali_jazz]

Again, you can't do this with a Glock because of the trigger dingus.. The thinking is that some movement, getting into a car, jumping, running, etc, could be enough to move the trigger and have this happen. There are hundreds of reports of this including hundreds in a class action lawsuit that keeps growing. The main thing is though that we have hundreds of reports including some very credible second hand ones in the competitive shooting community, and instead of doing something to actually show us that it's safe, they dismiss it. You can call it stupid but it certainly makes me trust you less personally when you just act like there's nothing credible. It's credible until we have proof that it's not.

I can't believe we're having this whole conversation again, like it's Groundhog day. This was discussed ad-nauseam here and elsewhere. Here is proof the Glock can go off just like any other striker-fired gun with a partial trigger pull. The bottom line is nobody has been able to make the P320 fire without touching the trigger.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

I can't believe we're having this whole conversation again, like it's Groundhog day. This was discussed ad-nauseam here and elsewhere. Here is proof the Glock can go off just like any other striker-fired gun with a partial trigger pull. The bottom line is nobody has been able to make the P320 fire without touching the trigger.

That's not the same thing, he has to press the trigger dingus and the p320 has no dingus. So the question remains, is it possible to simply jostle the trigger enough with it in the holster to "press" the trigger of a p320 without pressing it due to the lack of trigger dingus. It doesn't appear to be possible with a glock because of the dingus.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Sure! But there’s many professionals and agencies that still use it. I know folks who are even upset that their departments have banned it or who have fought bans - especially after the airman was charged.

And there is still no definitive proof that P320’s are susceptible to AD’s - without negligence or intention. It’s everyone claiming that x influencer or friends, cousins, uncle saw the trigger malfunction while it was holstered or x YouTuber made it go off - by using a screw or tool to stage the trigger.

when you have a safety concern the proof that's necessary is that it's safe, while there's still a question it's perfectly reasonable for people to not want to frick with a potential safety concern.

 

[Tere_Hanges]

I wouldn't call it 'safe' to assume.

Its safe to assume mags and sights of previous gens will be compatible. Please dont misinterpret me. The V should externally look the same as gen 5.

 

[cali_jazz]

That's not the same thing, he has to press the trigger dingus and the p320 has no dingus. So the question remains, is it possible to simply jostle the trigger enough with it in the holster to "press" the trigger of a p320 without pressing it due to the lack of trigger dingus. It doesn't appear to be possible with a glock because of the dingus.

Isn't that what the manual safety is for? All the arguments I've heard when analyzing uncommanded discharges were centered around the gun going off ostensibly without anyone touching the trigger. Now you're saying if some obstruction happens to get into the holster the trigger could get pulled. Well that's exactly Sig's argument, that some external force acted on the trigger due to user error and without that force, the gun can't fire. Agency Arms and others make a trigger safety ("dingus") you can get if it's a personal concern.

 

[Deleted member 16735]

Isn't that what the manual safety is for? All the arguments I've heard when analyzing uncommanded discharges were centered around the gun going off ostensibly without anyone touching the trigger. Now you're saying if some obstruction happens to get into the holster the trigger could get pulled. Well that's exactly Sig's argument, that some external force acted on the trigger due to user error and without that force, the gun can't fire. Agency Arms and others make a trigger safety ("dingus") you can get if it's a personal concern.

no I'm not saying an obstruction, I'm saying that just jostling the trigger may be enough. So nothing touching it except the force of gravity. These are the questions that don't have answers. I'm not saying its' definitive, I'm saying there's enough of a question that people are rightly wary of the p320. And Sig is acting like Scott here and basically just making fun of people for being concerned, while doing literally nothing to ease that concern. It's straight up abuser behavior.

 

[treelogger]

All the arguments I've heard when analyzing uncommanded discharges were centered around the gun going off ostensibly without anyone touching the trigger. Now you're saying if some obstruction happens to get into the holster the trigger could get pulled. Well that's exactly Sig's argument, that some external force acted on the trigger due to user error and without that force, the gun can't fire.

There is a huge difference between the normal trigger pull of a Glock or Sig P320 (about 5 pounds), and something "lightly touching the trigger", about half a pound. Matter-of-fact, the difference is about a factor of 10

If a normal (service or carry) gun fires when (a) something lightly touches the trigger, while (b) the gun itself is being jostled, then the gun is defective. On a competition gun with a single-stage hair trigger, that's a different story. But we're talking about service/carry pistols here.

But to repeat myself: I do not know for sure whether the P320 did go off uncommanded, and if yes, why and how. But I do know which of the guns in my safe have competition triggers, and which ones don't.

 

[cali_jazz]

There is a huge difference between the normal trigger pull of a Glock or Sig P320 (about 5 pounds), and something "lightly touching the trigger", about half a pound. Matter-of-fact, the difference is about a factor of 10

Not sure whom are what you are quoting when you say ""something "lightly touching the trigger"", or where you got the half a pound number from? Please provide a source.

If a normal (service or carry) gun fires when (a) something lightly touches the trigger, while (b) the gun itself is being jostled, then the gun is defective.

I agree with this statement, it would be defective. But where did you get information that led to the conclusion that something "lightly" touched the trigger? What does "lightly touched" even mean?

On a competition gun with a single-stage hair trigger, that's a different story. But we're talking about service/carry pistols here.

I'm no expert but from what I understand the pull weight is a cumulative measure over the trigger travel that gets progressively heavier (stiffer) as each firing component is engaged.
This is an excellent video from Sig Mechanics that measures and demonstrates every phase of the P320 trigger pull. (very cool measuring device). At 15:00 he walks through each step with an accompanying animation showing exactly what happens and what is takes for the firing pin to actually release. Note the reference at the break to "the massive jump in pull-weight needed to bring down the sear". 18:45 "Peak force is a measurement of the total pull-weight.

But to repeat myself: I do not know for sure whether the P320 did go off uncommanded, and if yes, why and how. But I do know which of the guns in my safe have competition triggers, and which ones don't.