Why isn’t there a USPSA (sub-)division for non-race pistols with compensators?

[FriedChickies]

You said it yourself. You're not even that interested in the sport. You do it for crossover training reasons primarily and you're the lowest classification as well. I find it interesting how many people are SO vocal about changing rules for sports they don't even understand thoroughly. While the actual people who compete and care about the sport understand why the rules exist in the first place. (Though there are exceptions).

As others have said, you could shoot open and it'd make no difference whatsoever since you wouldn't win in either your ideal division or the open one. I've been to plenty of matches where the top overall guys who even beat Open Shooters were just guys competing in CO with a stock Glock.

There are other sports with more lenient rules that are very similar to USPSA.

Mic drop.

 

[five.five-six]

I shoot single stack major and even though I suck, I win my division every match if someone shows up with another 8+1 1911, I’ll probably break out my revolver… I love winning!

 

[Hit Factor]

I shoot single stack major and even though I suck, I win my division every match if someone shows up with another 8+1 1911, I’ll probably break out my revolver… I love winning!

Limited 10 is another way to win pretty easily. And now that slide-mounted optics are allowed, the only real difference between Limited 10 and Limited Optics is a couple of mag changes.

 

[five.five-six]

Limited 10 is another way to win pretty easily. And now that slide-mounted optics are allowed, the only real difference between Limited 10 and Limited Optics is a couple of mag changes.

My belt holds 6 magazines, it’s not uncommon for me to be picking up every one of them LOL

 

[doggman61]

Limited 10 is another way to win pretty easily. And now that slide-mounted optics are allowed, the only real difference between Limited 10 and Limited Optics is a couple of mag changes.

This weekend that's what I'm shooting. Have a g22 with a red dot already so figured may as well dust it off and giver her a run. No doubt I'll be the only one shooting L10 major but who cares.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

You said it yourself. You're not even that interested in the sport.

I didn't say I'm not that interested in the sport. But if that's what you or others inferred, let me clarify: I'm primarily interested/focused on defense, right now. I do enjoy and have fun with shooting sports but at this point in my training I'm still rather "impressionable".

While I try and keep a defensive mindset with stage planning, drills...I still have a desire to compete and shave off time where possible. This has caused me to build some bad habits that would be detrimental in actual defensive scenario's. I'm at fault for that, not shooting sports. Therefore I continue to take and repeat classes and trainings (even basic, fundamental) to help keep myself grounded and my defensive foundation strong.

At some point, I'll be able to run my defensive drills from concealment with 95% in the 8" (on 5 strings and cold shot) and faster than "average" times:
- Bill Drill <= 2.00 sec
- Farnam Drill <= 4.00 sec
- Mozambique <= 2.00
...
Using cover
Close quarters
On the move
Transitions
...

Afterward, I'll give myself more leeway to "compete" - while of course, maintaining my defensive foundation. Shooting sports are fun and I enjoy them.

you're the lowest classification as well. I find it interesting how many people are SO vocal about changing rules for sports they don't even understand thoroughly.

If no one responded to this thread/question, I'd take the L go on my merry way. I'm not insulting the competition or leagues in any way. I enjoy them and I pay (and volunteer) to compete in them. Therefore, if I even think I can add value at any classification or level of involvement I'll certainly try. That sentiment of "unless you're X classification, you should keep your mouth shut." or "if you want to change it, go somewhere else" is absolutely ridiculous! If you didn't like the question you could've just ignored it.

Any sport or institution that's looking for longevity needs to "evolve". Go look at how USPSA has evolved since it's inception. Go look how/why it changed from IPSC rules. If it had stayed the same everyone would be shooting .45's with iron's, certainly no PCC division.

Quite simply, comps and ports are becoming far more common on factory, [minor] pistols and are seen as beneficial. One the most recommended EDC pistols, X-Macro, is factory comped - however minimal. Additionally, there are folks besides myself who think such a division or even option might makes sense. They've provided some scenarios in how that might work and I know others who would compete in it. THAT is why I asked this question. I didn't insult USPSA or shooting sports, I asked a question and gave reasoning/context as to why I asked it.

 

[ikeo1]

I didn't say I'm not that interested in the sport. But it that's what you or others inferred, let me clarify: I'm primarily interested/focused on defense, right now. I do enjoy and have fun with shooting sports but at this point in my training I'm still rather "impressionable".

While I try and keep a defensive mindset with stage planning, drills...I still have a desire to compete and shave off time where possible. This has caused me to build some bad habits that would be detrimental in actual defensive scenario's. I'm at fault for that, not shooting sports. Therefore I continue to take and repeat classes and trainings (even basic, fundamental) to help keep myself grounded and my defensive foundation strong.

At some point, I'll be able to run my defensive drills from concealment with 95% accuracy (on 5 strings and cold shot) and faster than "average" times:
- Bill Drill <= 2.00 sec
- Farnam Drill <= 4.00 sec
- Mozambique <= 2.00
...
Using cover
Close quarters
On the move
Transitions
...

Afterward, I'll give myself more leeway to "compete" - while of course, maintaining my defensive foundation. Shooting sports are fun and I enjoy them.


If no one responded to this thread/question, I'd take the L go on my merry way. I'm not insulting the competition or leagues in any way. I enjoy them and I pay (and volunteer) to compete in them. Therefore, if I even think I can add value at any classification or level of involvement I'll certainly try. That sentiment of "unless you're X classification, you should keep your mouth shut." or "if you want to change it, go somewhere else" is absolutely ridiculous! If you didn't like the question you could've just ignored it.

Any sport or institution that's looking for longevity needs to "evolve". Go look at how USPSA has evolved since it's inception. Go look how/why it changed from IPSC rules. If it had stayed the same everyone would be shooting .45's with iron's, certainly no PCC division.

Quite simply, comps and ports are becoming far more common on factory, [minor] pistols and are seen as beneficial. One the most recommended EDC pistols, X-Macro, is factory comped - however minimal. Additionally, there are folks besides myself who think such a division or even option might makes sense. They've provided some scenarios in how that might work and I know others would compete in it. THAT is why I asked this question. I didn't insult USPSA or shooting sports, I asked a question and gave reasoning/context as to why I asked it.

Just an FYI, you don’t need to justify yourself.

Shoot for fun and to get better, the more seriously you take it the nuances will show. Enjoy the journey and progression of understanding your tools better. It’s take time and practice before any of this really matters.

The sport will update in time but doesn’t move fast because it’s trending. The comps on pistols is still very immature from a factory POV so competition will add it in later once more people use it. Mostly these are on micro or compacts that are mainly for defensive purposes not speed so IDPA approved it already.

Main thing is just to train with what you have. Don’t compare to others until you get really comfortable with your gear.

 

[SteelChallengeFiend]

I didn't say I'm not that interested in the sport. But if that's what you or others inferred, let me clarify: I'm primarily interested/focused on defense, right now. I do enjoy and have fun with shooting sports but at this point in my training I'm still rather "impressionable".

While I try and keep a defensive mindset with stage planning, drills...I still have a desire to compete and shave off time where possible. This has caused me to build some bad habits that would be detrimental in actual defensive scenario's. I'm at fault for that, not shooting sports. Therefore I continue to take and repeat classes and trainings (even basic, fundamental) to help keep myself grounded and my defensive foundation strong.

At some point, I'll be able to run my defensive drills from concealment with 95% in the 8" (on 5 strings and cold shot) and faster than "average" times:
- Bill Drill <= 2.00 sec
- Farnam Drill <= 4.00 sec
- Mozambique <= 2.00
...
Using cover
Close quarters
On the move
Transitions
...

Afterward, I'll give myself more leeway to "compete" - while of course, maintaining my defensive foundation. Shooting sports are fun and I enjoy them.


If no one responded to this thread/question, I'd take the L go on my merry way. I'm not insulting the competition or leagues in any way. I enjoy them and I pay (and volunteer) to compete in them. Therefore, if I even think I can add value at any classification or level of involvement I'll certainly try. That sentiment of "unless you're X classification, you should keep your mouth shut." or "if you want to change it, go somewhere else" is absolutely ridiculous! If you didn't like the question you could've just ignored it.

Any sport or institution that's looking for longevity needs to "evolve". Go look at how USPSA has evolved since it's inception. Go look how/why it changed from IPSC rules. If it had stayed the same everyone would be shooting .45's with iron's, certainly no PCC division.

Quite simply, comps and ports are becoming far more common on factory, [minor] pistols and are seen as beneficial. One the most recommended EDC pistols, X-Macro, is factory comped - however minimal. Additionally, there are folks besides myself who think such a division or even option might makes sense. They've provided some scenarios in how that might work and I know others who would compete in it. THAT is why I asked this question. I didn't insult USPSA or shooting sports, I asked a question and gave reasoning/context as to why I asked it.

I never said you have to be a certain classification for your opinion to be of value. If someone's been D class for years, but they know the sport inside out, their opinion is just as valid as a GM's in regard to how the sport operates. You're fairly new to the sport though. And your concern is ultimately being competitive and ranking up at some point. Then you will have to start looking at it for what it is, a sport. You won't rank up with equipment or tactical movement, but with pure sport oriented shooting skill.

The reason I brought up your classification is because it's so low, that it shows you have so many more fundamental skills to learn to class up. Classification times are really not THAT different from each other based on division. A guy who's a Grandmaster in CO using a stock Glock will put up Master or A times in Open.

So if you're a D class shooter, making yet ANOTHER division to fit your own personal equipment wants, won't rank you up. I know where you're coming from because I was THAT guy. Who knows, maybe I'm projecting, but you sound just like I used to.

I remember when I had to compete in Limited with my Glock because production had a 10 round limit, I didn't like the rule because it wasn't "realistic", I wanted to use my high capacity mags that I use for work and CCW, and my excuse for being a D class shooter was that I was going up against guys with double stack 1911s with crisp triggers and less recoil (and major scoring in USPSA).

Two weeks ago I won 1st place overall in a local steel challenge match even against Open shooters with the same Glock I started shooting in USPSA around 5 years ago. All I'm trying to say is, even if USPSA tomorrow said "okay, let's appeal to this guy and a few others like him", and made yet ANOTHER convoluted division, you'd still be D class. But the sport would suffer as it'd be even harder to make competitive divisions filled with shooters. Which is why I mentioned earlier that it's crazy that people who are new to the sport, instantly want to change something without understanding it.

There would be like 100 divisions if everyone got their way. The "stock trigger" division. The "no magwell but yes this and that" division. The "comped but iron sight" division. Etc etc. Not viable.

 

[five.five-six]

 

[FriedChickies]

I never said you have to be a certain classification for your opinion to be of value. If someone's been D class for years, but they know the sport inside out, their opinion is just as valid as a GM's in regard to how the sport operates. You're fairly new to the sport though. And your concern is ultimately being competitive and ranking up at some point. Then you will have to start looking at it for what it is, a sport. You won't rank up with equipment or tactical movement, but with pure sport oriented shooting skill.

The reason I brought up your classification is because it's so low, that it shows you have so many more fundamental skills to learn to class up. Classification times are really not THAT different from each other based on division. A guy who's a Grandmaster in CO using a stock Glock will put up Master or A times in Open.

So if you're a D class shooter, making yet ANOTHER division to fit your own personal equipment wants, won't rank you up. I know where you're coming from because I was THAT guy. Who knows, maybe I'm projecting, but you sound just like I used to.

I remember when I had to compete in Limited with my Glock because production had a 10 round limit, I didn't like the rule because it wasn't "realistic", I wanted to use my high capacity mags that I use for work and CCW, and my excuse for being a D class shooter was that I was going up against guys with double stack 1911s with crisp triggers and less recoil (and major scoring in USPSA).

Two weeks ago I won 1st place overall in a local steel challenge match even against Open shooters with the same Glock I started shooting in USPSA around 5 years ago. All I'm trying to say is, even if USPSA tomorrow said "okay, let's appeal to this guy and a few others like him", and made yet ANOTHER convoluted division, you'd still be D class. But the sport would suffer as it'd be even harder to make competitive divisions filled with shooters. Which is why I mentioned earlier that it's crazy that people who are new to the sport, instantly want to change something without understanding it.

There would be like 100 divisions if everyone got their way. The "stock trigger" division. The "no magwell but yes this and that" division. The "comped but iron sight" division. Etc etc. Not viable.

I’m a huge USPSA nerd. A-class CO with a stock VP9. Wish I could upvote this more than once. Your second paragraph is right on the money. The classification times between the divisions is largely not different at all, if you plug in and play around with your time and scored hits on the classification calculator.

Respectfully OP, it seems like you’re too green to realize this. Accommodating your equipment preferences is not the answer. But I don’t think you’re wrong for asking these questions in your thread either.

 

[-BTM-]

A good chunk of my pistols have compensation - or can be configured to.

I feel that compensators are commonplace now and I’m wondering what it might take to get USPSA and other competition leagues to have a division - or sub-division - for compensated pistols that would also be allowed in production, limited, co…

I don’t think that anyone has mentioned that comps aren’t a huge advantage if your ammo is not set up to take advantage of it. 9mm major with a 115? Sure. A ported .357 magnum with a 158? Don’t bother. It might feel different but it’s not gonna change splits.

 

[21SF 2.0]

"I mean this in the nicest way possible but you aren't going to win anyway."
You're absolutely right! LMFAO I just barely got my first [D] classification in production so I'm WAAAY ahead of myself.

However, even the thought that I could potentially be competitive is enough to make me want to compete just a little bit more. At the same time I'm primarily defense minded and mainly compete for the crossover benefits. Also, the stage planning probably pretty good cognitive benefits.

Also, I'm curious if more people feel the same and would compete in such a division or sub-division were it offered.

I agree with him, already enough divisions. The fact that you want this means you’re too new to know you aren’t going to win so competing in open isn’t a big deal. Shoot what you want, it doesn’t matter. If you get to A or close to M and still feel this way maybe then it will be a serious thought experiment.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

I don’t think that anyone has mentioned that comps aren’t a huge advantage if your ammo is not set up to take advantage of it. 9mm major with a 115? Sure. A ported .357 magnum with a 158? Don’t bother. It might feel different but it’s not gonna change splits.

@ikeo1 has actually mentioned that a couple of times which makes sense to me. He also said that factory comps could use some maturation before carving out something specific for them, and whether or not it even makes sense to.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

I think these answer my question and give me a bit more insight in to such questions. I'll nerd up on this a bit more.

@ikeo1

The sport will update in time but doesn’t move fast because it’s trending. The comps on pistols is still very immature from a factory POV so competition will add it in later once more people use it. Mostly these are on micro or compacts that are mainly for defensive purposes not speed so IDPA approved it already.

@-BTM-

I don’t think that anyone has mentioned that comps aren’t a huge advantage if your ammo is not set up to take advantage of it. 9mm major with a 115? Sure. A ported .357 magnum with a 158? Don’t bother. It might feel different but it’s not gonna change splits.

I read this as:

1. We won't see much benefit to factory comps - let alone justifying their own division - until there's more maturity from them and especially in minor power factor
2. Making changes - especially to the divisional structure - is a balancing act. Just because something is the trendy doesn't mean it needs a new division so you'll have to give these things time to mature and persevere.

On another note I asked a couple of folks yesterday, "How do you think USPSA should handle factory comps/ports? If there was a new division for it would you shoot it?"

Person 1: M - LO, CO but mainly shoots IDPA now (MA in a few divisions). Doesn't think it will make much of difference for minor. Thinks they should just allow factory and some aftermarket comps - like a Ramjet or minimal PMM in the current divisions.

Person 2: A - CO (needs 2 more M classifier runs) - Thinks a [minor] full division for it is "ridiculous" but thinks they should find some way to incorporate them, even just allowing them with other divisions until they show an overwhelming advantage. Also feels that currently, factory comps needs more maturity.

Summary: Both of them said they would definitely compete in it if there were a division but don't think it currently justifies that. Would like to see more manufacturers putting out and improving comped 9mm - .45 and think that getting more competition would help with that. Would not object to just allowing factory comps now - for minor - in current divisions. Additionally, they think the current USPSA divisional structure, overall doesn't fit well. They're frustrated with it and like many of you said here, they mentioned that a couple of were overloaded while others need more competitors. They feel USPSA should rethink and overhaul the divisional structure entirely.

I didn't show them this thread because but briefly mentioned it, after hearing their responses. I did say that some folks thought I was too new to ask or have an opinion on this. They said that kinda feels like asking/answering questions on StackOverflow - too much to explain but IYKYK. They also might join CAguns because we were also talking about investing and I mentioned the Investing and Investments during crisis thread.

Thanks for engaging! I'm going to turn off notifs for this thread but will take a look periodically.

 

[-BTM-]

(Clip


I read this as:

1. We won't see much benefit to factory comps - let alone justifying their own division - until there's more maturity from them

Comps have been in use for almost 100 years. John Dillinger used one ffs. The Cutts compensator dates to the 40’s. The current arms race started in the ‘80s. I ran a ported 586 in the 90’s that looked like an oncoming steam train it had so many ports on top. 9x21, 9major as well. Top ports, side ports, top and side ports, etc.

I guess my point is that compensator technology is as good as it is going to get. It’s your ammo that needs to change. Less bullet, more gas.

 

[SteelChallengeFiend]

Hot take: remove major scoring.
Without major amount a tricked out open gun in 38 super comp doesn't really have a huge advantage over a ported glock.

It sucks for people who have invesred in open calibers, but USPSA was conceived at the height of the caliber wars. They're over now and 9mm won, the sport will eventually need to catch up to that reality.

It'll still have an advantage because hotter ammo works the comp better. The guys at the top will continue to use hot ammo even without major scoring. But yes. You're still correct that a massive advantage would disappear in regard to the scoring.

Still though, there's an argument to be made for power factor. A guy shooting realistic duty loads (124g +p NATO spec) is shooting a more difficult pistol to control (outside of open ofc) than a guy who's showing up with his reloaded 90 grain bullets with the bare minimum charge to make the slide work.

 

[BigBossman]

There's already too many divisions. You can just compete in open, I mean this in the nicest way possible but you aren't going to win anyway. Just go have fun. And if you want to get serious build the pistol that fits into the division you want to compete in.

I still use a single stack 1911. 45 with open sights, and as you say I don't win. But I beat half the guys with fancy 2011's and I'm pretty good with that.

And, I always win my division because I'm the only one in it..

 

[SOULBYTE]

You said it yourself. You're not even that interested in the sport. You do it for crossover training reasons primarily and you're the lowest classification as well. I find it interesting how many people are SO vocal about changing rules for sports they don't even understand thoroughly. While the actual people who compete and care about the sport understand why the rules exist in the first place. (Though there are exceptions).

THIS, Thank you!