help me pick my second gun: Springfield Echelon 4c Comp vs HK VP9 A1-K

[haroldopsf]

If you are in San Jose Reeds Indoor Range has the 4.5 Comp and the older VP9 for rent.

oh, thanks for this! I will check that out!

 

[tomrkba]

I'm a new gun owner, got my first one a month ago (Sig P320 X5 Legion), thinking that it would enough for home defense and fun at the range. Next thing I know I took two separate 16 hour handgun courses, another 16 hour one for CCW coming this month, been dry fire practicing almost every day, obsessing as I discover everything about firearms, and now I have a list of a bunch of guns I want to eventually own (carry, shotgun, and rifle). I have no idea how I got here.

Cut story short, I think my next one will be something I can carry. On this realm, I am looking for those pistols that are concealable but still fun to shoot, with a 4 inch barrel, and shorter grip module.

I'm looking for the best thing I can get under $1500. In this range, I have narrowed to these 2 pistols, purposely not including the P365 as I want something different than a Sig for my second one (and I think the Echelon and HK here are better options for me anyway, not to mention they look amazing, the Echelon feature rich and optics ready, and the HK with outstanding build quality).

I have been searching for comparisons between these 2, and have not run into much.

Spam me with your thoughts please.

Also, if there is something else I should consider, please share.

Thanks in advance!

HK everyday, all day...there is not even a question. For $1500, you should be able to get both (which is the real gun forum answer!)

 

[tomrkba]

I'm a new gun owner, got my first one a month ago (Sig P320 X5 Legion), thinking that it would enough for home defense and fun at the range. Next thing I know I took two separate 16 hour handgun courses, another 16 hour one for CCW coming this month, been dry fire practicing almost every day, obsessing as I discover everything about firearms, and now I have a list of a bunch of guns I want to eventually own (carry, shotgun, and rifle). I have no idea how I got here.

Cut story short, I think my next one will be something I can carry. On this realm, I am looking for those pistols that are concealable but still fun to shoot, with a 4 inch barrel, and shorter grip module.

I'm looking for the best thing I can get under $1500. In this range, I have narrowed to these 2 pistols, purposely not including the P365 as I want something different than a Sig for my second one (and I think the Echelon and HK here are better options for me anyway, not to mention they look amazing, the Echelon feature rich and optics ready, and the HK with outstanding build quality).

I have been searching for comparisons between these 2, and have not run into much.

Spam me with your thoughts please.

Also, if there is something else I should consider, please share.

Thanks in advance!

The serious answer is this:

Whatever your carry gun is, your next gun should be IDENTICAL and should be used exclusively for practice and training. Keep the "miles" low on your carry gun and run up the practice gun. Also, acquire a few gunsmithing tools and a few extra springs for the gun you choose. Keep a "field repair" kit in your gun bag.

Given the choices listed, your choice should be the HK VP9. It's going to be better than any Springfield. The HK has a street track record and the Echelon does not as far as I know. Gun forum people will spend the next 100 posts arguing about what "better" means. For you, know that HK is held in higher regard than Springfield Armory, which betrayed gun owners a few years ago. While not related to the technical details of the pistol, of which the HK is superior, it is something to keep in mind. Let's not forget what Smith and Wesson did to gun owners with its Clinton gun deal and the company almost went out of business as a result. The "siren song" of the Echelon will be its feature set. It does offer some very nice options for an on-roster gun. But as I said, the technical details matter and HK is well known to product top of the line pistols. You will pay a premium for the HK.

This is from the Rangemaster June 2020 newsletter. Tom Givens of Rangemaster is a well known gun trainer and considered one of the top gun fighting teachers in the country. Read the whole thing, but pay particular attention to "Lessons Learned, and Then Re-Learned".

"I am often asked by students something like, “I have to decided to carry this gun, and have bought one. What gun should I buy next?”. My answer is to buy another one just like it, and follow the practice of training/practicing with one and carrying its twin. The photo shows my identical twin G17’s. The one on the left is my every day carry gun. The one on the right is my training/practice gun. They are virtually indistinguishable."

Size wise, the VP9A1 K and Echelon 4.0 are virtually identical in height and length.



In terms of the $1,500 budget, the Echelon costs $699 ($882.98) and the HK $999 ($1245.98) at City Arms in Pacifica, CA. Take the remaining money, add Trijicon HD night sights and buy magazines (gunmagwarehouse.com). Get to at least 12. After that, make an order with either JM Custom Kydex or Tenicor (Certum 3 -- appendix or strong side carry). Now your gun is setup for carry. Worry about optics later.

Per Tom Givens, your next gun will be identical. Put one on your carry permit and the other is for training and practice.

I understand if you choose the Springfield. It has many great features and is $363 less. That's a lot of mags. We tend to get wrapped up in over-optimization and analysis "to get the most for our money." But there are only two factors that you truly need consider for a gun fighting pistol: reliability and accuracy. The rest is gravy because the gun must work every time. If it is accurate, it means all the ergonomics, trigger, feel, etc, come together for the shooter and the result is accurate fire.

 

[tomrkba]

100% shoot them, or at least hold and dry fire. The most important thing is how it fits your hands as that’ll dictate how well you shoot it. I’d look at a PDP as well.

BUT you should also get a P365 or other micro compact if you’re getting your CCW as they are WAY easier to conceal, and you’re more likely to actually carry it.

Now let's talk about recommendations "to shoot the gun" before buying. The advice is well-intended, but incorrect. The reason is that the OP stated he is a new gun owner and in a later post, "a total noob".

These statements indicate that he does not know how to properly shoot a handgun fast and accurately. In short, he lacks proficiency. This lack of proficiency means he does not have the knowledge and skills to correctly and thoroughly evaluate any particular handgun for the purpose (of self-defense and fun). "Fun" doesn't matter, but self-defense (aka gun fighting) does.

The CORRECT recommendation is that he buy NOTHING. Instead, he should find a local trainer and attend at least two full days of RANGE training. Classroom training, such as an NRA gun safety course, is great and necessary for all new gun owners. The class he needs to take is a defensive firearms course. Many trainers have gone to a 1 day format; in some cases they have gone to a 4-6 hour format. The cumulative training a new gun owner should attend is at least 16 hours/2 full days. This could mean a single two day class or four half day classes. Any 3-5 day class will be superior because it will be far more comprehensive. Examples are Mas Ayoob's MAG-40 class, Gunsite 250, etc.

A proper gun course will cover at least the following training points:

1) Shooting assessment
2) Shooting fundamentals and drills
3) Learning how to safely draw and holster
4) Techniques for loading and reloading the gun
5) Shooting drills
6) Malfunction drills
7) Basic movement while shooting; cover and concealment
8) Shooting at distance (25-50 yards)
9) Low light/flash light usage (night portion of the class)
10) Soft skills: force continuum, when and when not to use force, basics of verbal judo
11) Scenarios (Shoot/No Shoot, verbalization, awareness/limits of awareness)
12) Post-shooting assessment
13) Law enforcement interaction ("Officer, I will be happy to cooperate with your investigation after I consult with my attorney. I positively assert my right to remain silent." Then STFU!!!!)
14) Legal resources, including CCW insurance, training DVD's, books, etc.


The benefit of training, and using whatever they hand the student, is that the range skills necessary for personal defense will be learned. The student will learn quite a bit about the gun they are using for those hours. Two eight hour days teaches far more than 16 one hour range sessions. Your hands have the opportunity to get cut up, tired, and dirty. How the gun feels in the hand under recoil after 50 rounds and 300 rounds is very different. Reliability will be demonstrated, as will any deficiencies. Sights fly off, magazine releases are incorrectly placed or have weak springs (resulting in mags falling out during firing), and every sharp edge will catch a finger. Single hour sessions are not long enough for all the "debugging" to occur.

I was all gung-ho for the Browning Hi-Power around two decades ago. I attended "Concealed Carry for Self-Defense" by FPF training at Quantico's public range sometime in 2005. The gun was a disaster. In the first two hours, I had a dozen bleeding finger cuts from running the slide fast during reloads. The magazine well was not beveled and I was missing mag changes. The trigger was very heavy at like 10 pounds and I was throwing shots out. It started raining sideways. The plastic grips became slippery; combined with senstive cut fingers, this made running the gun tough.

After lunch, I switched back to my Glock 19. For $535, the 19 came with every feature the Hi-Power did not: smooth, beveled mag well, etc. At the time, it would have cost $800 or so to dehorn the gun, perform a trigger job, bevel the magwell, and refinish the whole thing. The Glock did it all straight from the factory (except for the sights).

In summary, the best investment you can make in guns is attending training. Most local ranges will have 4-16 hour courses and often bring in traveling trainers. It is best to use what they hand you and focus upon learning the skills in the class. Once you know what you need to do, then go out and buy guns. This is the shortcut to success and helps keep the number of extra handguns you barely to a minimum.

Of course, if you are like me, you'll buy handguns just to try and never sell them

 

[weaverftw]

Now let's talk about recommendations "to shoot the gun" before buying. The advice is well-intended, but incorrect. The reason is that the OP stated he is a new gun owner and in a later post, "a total noob".

These statements indicate that he does not know how to properly shoot a handgun fast and accurately. In short, he lacks proficiency. This lack of proficiency means he does not have the knowledge and skills to correctly and thoroughly evaluate any particular handgun for the purpose (of self-defense and fun). "Fun" doesn't matter, but self-defense (aka gun fighting) does.

The CORRECT recommendation is that he buy NOTHING. Instead, he should find a local trainer and attend at least two full days of RANGE training. Classroom training, such as an NRA gun safety course, is great and necessary for all new gun owners. The class he needs to take is a defensive firearms course. Many trainers have gone to a 1 day format; in some cases they have gone to a 4-6 hour format. The cumulative training a new gun owner should attend is at least 16 hours/2 full days. This could mean a single two day class or four half day classes. Any 3-5 day class will be superior because it will be far more comprehensive. Examples are Mas Ayoob's MAG-40 class, Gunsite 250, etc.

A proper gun course will cover at least the following training points:

1) Shooting assessment
2) Shooting fundamentals and drills
3) Learning how to safely draw and holster
4) Techniques for loading and reloading the gun
5) Shooting drills
6) Malfunction drills
7) Basic movement while shooting; cover and concealment
8) Shooting at distance (25-50 yards)
9) Low light/flash light usage (night portion of the class)
10) Soft skills: force continuum, when and when not to use force, basics of verbal judo
11) Scenarios (Shoot/No Shoot, verbalization, awareness/limits of awareness)
12) Post-shooting assessment
13) Law enforcement interaction ("Officer, I will be happy to cooperate with your investigation after I consult with my attorney. I positively assert my right to remain silent." Then STFU!!!!)
14) Legal resources, including CCW insurance, training DVD's, books, etc.


The benefit of training, and using whatever they hand the student, is that the range skills necessary for personal defense will be learned. The student will learn quite a bit about the gun they are using for those hours. Two eight hour days teaches far more than 16 one hour range sessions. Your hands have the opportunity to get cut up, tired, and dirty. How the gun feels in the hand under recoil after 50 rounds and 300 rounds is very different. Reliability will be demonstrated, as will any deficiencies. Sights fly off, magazine releases are incorrectly placed or have weak springs (resulting in mags falling out during firing), and every sharp edge will catch a finger. Single hour sessions are not long enough for all the "debugging" to occur.

I was all gung-ho for the Browning Hi-Power around two decades ago. I attended "Concealed Carry for Self-Defense" by FPF training at Quantico's public range sometime in 2005. The gun was a disaster. In the first two hours, I had a dozen bleeding finger cuts from running the slide fast during reloads. The magazine well was not beveled and I was missing mag changes. The trigger was very heavy at like 10 pounds and I was throwing shots out. It started raining sideways. The plastic grips became slippery; combined with senstive cut fingers, this made running the gun tough.

After lunch, I switched back to my Glock 19. For $535, the 19 came with every feature the Hi-Power did not: smooth, beveled mag well, etc. At the time, it would have cost $800 or so to dehorn the gun, perform a trigger job, bevel the magwell, and refinish the whole thing. The Glock did it all straight from the factory (except for the sights).

In summary, the best investment you can make in guns is attending training. Most local ranges will have 4-16 hour courses and often bring in traveling trainers. It is best to use what they hand you and focus upon learning the skills in the class. Once you know what you need to do, then go out and buy guns. This is the shortcut to success and helps keep the number of extra handguns you barely to a minimum.

Of course, if you are like me, you'll buy handguns just to try and never sell them

I agree with the sentiment, but 90% of people aren’t going to do all this. Handling the gun in store and seeing what feels better in your hands and points naturally and feels easier to pull the trigger while holding the gun steady is easy to do and even a newb can get great benefit from this. Once they start training with it and learn the 100 lessons they will undoubtedly learn, they can apply those to the second gun purchase. I think it’s unrealistic and idealistic to expect people new to shooting to go through the above.

A good happy medium would be to go to the range to rent guns with someone experienced (I’ve offered that to OP for just a moderate drive, he can try my guns too) or pay for a single private lesson at a range that rents guns and tell the instructor you’re there for him to help you figure out what gun suits you best (can be pricey for 1:1).

 

[haroldopsf]

The serious answer is this:

.......

wow, thank you so much for the detailed write up! I'm leaning heavily on the HK, cost is not an issue below the budget, so the argument for the Echelon "lots of features for the money" is not very meaning full to me. I will read that article in its entirety. Thank you so much.

One more thing I just want to make clear, since one other comment was "I see you keep your guns stock...", and you are mentioning about "next gun should be identical to what your carry is...". I'm not sure if I was clear, but I am a completely noob, green, just got my first gun a month ago (p320 x5 legion), never owned or even shot a gun before that. I have no idea how/why I became this obsessed and want to get more guns now, but its where I'm at (wife is very confused and thinking its weird). Just wanted to put out there, I'm totally new to this, I know nothing yet, I don't carry anything (yet, ccw application ongoing), and I don't know yet what mods or whatever accessories I can add to what, etc.

I truly appreciate all the info I am getting from this thread. Priceless.

 

[tomrkba]

I agree with the sentiment, but 90% of people aren’t going to do all this. Handling the gun in store and seeing what feels better in your hands and points naturally and feels easier to pull the trigger while holding the gun steady is easy to do and even a newb can get great benefit from this. Once they start training with it and learn the 100 lessons they will undoubtedly learn, they can apply those to the second gun purchase. I think it’s unrealistic and idealistic to expect people new to shooting to go through the above.

A good happy medium would be to go to the range to rent guns with someone experienced (I’ve offered that to OP for just a moderate drive, he can try my guns too) or pay for a single private lesson at a range that rents guns and tell the instructor you’re there for him to help you figure out what gun suits you best (can be pricey for 1:1).

Agreed...most people are lazy, cheap and never learn to shoot properly. They then waste years trying to learn how to shoot and tend to give up.

"Handling the gun in store and seeing what feels better in your hands and points naturally and feels easier to pull the trigger while holding the gun steady is easy to do and even a newb can get great benefit from this. "

Do you hear yourself? Do you really think a gun store will "benefit a newb"?????????

"Feels great in the hand" and "Points naturally" are the BEST gun sales techniques ever!!!! The store I worked at sold so many guns that way!!!

"Holding the gun steady". That's a great one too!

"See how you hold this $1,500 SIG more naturally and steady--it feels great in the hands--which is so much better than that Taurus?". Followed up with: "This gun was made for you!"

As soon as I heard another employee talking about "feel in the hand" and "naturally pointing", I knew immediately that there was an upsell in progress!!!

LMAO...gullible Americans!!!!

 

[haroldopsf]

....The CORRECT recommendation is that he buy NOTHING. Instead, he should find a local trainer and attend at least two full days of RANGE training. Classroom training,

Totally! I've already attended:

- Handgun 1 Safety and Handling, make ready, make safe, malfunctions, reloads, sights, grip, posture, etc etc etc(8 hours including classroom)
- Handgun II Tactical Defense (8 hours)

- Additional private lesson with the instructor (4 hours 1 on 1)

Tomorrow and Sunday:
- Red Dot Sight (8 hours)
- Red Dot Sight II (8 hours)

For my CCW:
April 28:
- 8 hours classroom
April 29
- 8 hours range

I also have been dry fire practicing on my own 15 minutes a day. Trying to educate myself as best as I can. Thanks for noticing the most important aspect of my original post, the fact that I am a total beginner, appreciate it

 

[tomrkba]

wow, thank you so much for the detailed write up! I'm leaning heavily on the HK, cost is not an issue below the budget, so the argument for the Echelon "lots of features for the money" is not very meaning full to me. I will read that article in its entirety. Thank you so much.

One more thing I just want to make clear, since one other comment was "I see you keep your guns stock...", and you are mentioning about "next gun should be identical to what your carry is...". I'm not sure if I was clear, but I am a completely noob, green, just got my first gun a month ago (p320 x5 legion), never owned or even shot a gun before that. I have no idea how/why I became this obsessed and want to get more guns now, but its where I'm at (wife is very confused and thinking its weird). Just wanted to put out there, I'm totally new to this, I know nothing yet, I don't carry anything (yet, ccw application ongoing), and I don't know yet what mods or whatever accessories I can add to what, etc.

I truly appreciate all the info I am getting from this thread. Priceless.

Yeah, that's fine. You bought a high end gun as your first. Never sell it; you'll just end up buying it again if you get attached to it.

Don't fall for consumerism here! It is not the time (yet). Get some skills first.

This is why I recommend going to training. They will cover all the bases. You will learn to draw the gun, safely holster, run drills and learn how to handle malfunctions. Your goal is to absorb as much as possible, go home, write a few essays on it from your notes (hint: Use "Rite in the Rain" notepads -- available on amazon.com), and then create a 100 round practice document. Take that to the range and follow it. It should cover all the skills you learned in class from slow fire accuracy at distance to rapid fire double taps at close range, include reloading, etc.

 

[tomrkba]

Totally! I've already attended:

- Handgun 1 Safety and Handling, make ready, make safe, malfunctions, reloads, sights, grip, posture, etc etc etc(8 hours including classroom)
- Handgun II Tactical Defense (8 hours)

- Additional private lesson with the instructor (4 hours 1 on 1)

Tomorrow and Sunday:
- Red Dot Sight (8 hours)
- Red Dot Sight II (8 hours)

For my CCW:
April 28:
- 8 hours classroom
April 29
- 8 hours range

I also have been dry fire practicing on my own 15 minutes a day. Trying to educate myself as best as I can. Thanks for noticing the most important aspect of my original post, the fact that I am a total beginner, appreciate it

You are 100% on the right path and far, far, far, far ahead of most handgun owners with just the courses you have on that list!!!

Who are you taking those classes with? I haven't trained in a year and a half or so and can feel the rust starting. How was Handgun II Tactical Defense and where did you take it?

 

[haroldopsf]

You are 100% on the right path and far, far, far, far ahead of most handgun owners with just the courses you have on that list!!!

Who are you taking those classes with? I haven't trained in a year and a half or so and can feel the rust starting. How was Handgun II Tactical Defense and where did you take it?

I'm taking these courses at this range:

THE RANGE

firearms training, astoria logistic group, astoria logistics group, friearms training in monterey ca, firearms training in monterey county, firearms training in monterey county ca,

www.astoriarange.com

The instructor is amazing, his name is Art, leo/swat team member and instructor (swat team's instructor) since 2004. He takes huge pride and joy in his courses, amazing, humble guy, can't talk him up enough. We had a corrections officer in the handgun I course that just like you, has a ton of gun ownership experience but needed to refresh his skills and he loved the course. My wife also took 4 hours private with him and really enjoyed (she was scared of the gun at first, unable to rack it, engage the slide lock, basic things. She got out of there with basic handling down and confidence.

He also teaches rifle courses, and a few ex members of his team still attend. That says a lot. I can give you his info if you wish, hit me up in private.

 

[haroldopsf]

. How was Handgun II Tactical Defense and where did you take it?

sorry, forgot to comment on this in my previous reply. It was really good, totally pushed me out of my element to be honest, but it was great. This covers a lot of movement, closing in on targets from different angles, taking cover, moving from one stance to another while maintaining proper / safe pointing and handling on target (like shooting while laying down under cover, then getting up, taking position on one knee while maintaining the target, then up, then everything again on the other side with the other hand. I thought it was hard, some stuff is very counter intutiive. I definitely want to take it again. I'm 49 yo in ok shape, and you would think a simple thing like shooting with one knee down, then getting up to move positions is trivial, while holding the gun and pointing...its not

the main outcome that he (the instructor) wants for the handgun II course is that at the end, students can diagnose themselves. He is very active in engaging your own critical thinking throughout that course.

one thing to note is that these courses require a holster, and to shoot from the holster in this range you either need to have the handgun I course completed, or show them proof of something equivalent

 

[weaverftw]

Do you hear yourself? Do you really think a gun store will "benefit a newb"?????????

"Feels great in the hand" and "Points naturally" are the BEST gun sales techniques ever!!!! The store I worked at sold so many guns that way!!!

"Holding the gun steady". That's a great one too!

"See how you hold this $1,500 SIG more naturally and steady--it feels great in the hands--which is so much better than that Taurus?". Followed up with: "This gun was made for you!"

As soon as I heard another employee talking about "feel in the hand" and "naturally pointing", I knew immediately that there was an upsell in progress!!!

LMAO...gullible Americans!!!!

LOL I don’t know who you’re mad at, why you’re so upset, or why you use so many exclamation points like AI marketing material!!!, but clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about. I never said anything about asking a gun store employee for advice or listening to anything they say. I said you go there, handle guns, see how they fit/feel, pull the trigger to see how short/light/crisp it is and see if it affects sight alignment.

To suggest that how a gun fits your hands and if it matches up with your natural point of aim/index is only a “sales technique” shows you know nothing about shooting. Go listen to advice from ANY of the top shooters in the world and you will find they all give this advice and themselves have preferred models for distinct ergonomic reasons. Some guns fit some people well and fit others like , and that GREATLY influences your ability to get a solid grip on the gun and be able to shoot accurately. This is why some guns have different backstraps, grip sizes, length of pull, etc.

You also lost it about about my “holding the gun steady” comment. Dry fire is THE number one best thing any shooter can do for practice and to test a trigger pull. The ENTIRE POINT is to be able to get a solid grip, get the sights on target, and HOLD THE GUN STILL while pressing the trigger. If you move the gun at all while pressing the trigger, you throw the shot. This is like absolutely beginner marksmanship fundamentals, so the fact you think it’s a “gimmick” tells me all I need to know about your knowledge.

OP, be careful who you listen to as in anything, there are lots of people in the gun world with strong and incorrect opinions. Try out guns in person and pick the one you shoot best that fits your needs. Practice with it, dry fire at home and get range time, get instruction every couple months to help inform your training. My offer’s still on the table to come shoot at my range for free and try out any rental guns (or my personal guns) for free if you pay for your ammo.

 

[haroldopsf]

....My offer’s still on the table to come shoot at my range for free and try out any rental guns (or my personal guns) for free if you pay for your ammo.

thank you so much! that's very nice of you, and I do want to take up your offer (lots in flight in life now, ned to figure out how to make it work). I will not forget, thank you again

 

[tomrkba]

LOL I don’t know who you’re mad at, why you’re so upset, or why you use so many exclamation points like AI marketing material!!!, but clearly you don’t know what you’re talking about. I never said anything about asking a gun store employee for advice or listening to anything they say. I said you go there, handle guns, see how they fit/feel, pull the trigger to see how short/light/crisp it is and see if it affects sight alignment.

To suggest that how a gun fits your hands and if it matches up with your natural point of aim/index is only a “sales technique” shows you know nothing about shooting. Go listen to advice from ANY of the top shooters in the world and you will find they all give this advice and themselves have preferred models for distinct ergonomic reasons. Some guns fit some people well and fit others like , and that GREATLY influences your ability to get a solid grip on the gun and be able to shoot accurately. This is why some guns have different backstraps, grip sizes, length of pull, etc.

You also lost it about about my “holding the gun steady” comment. Dry fire is THE number one best thing any shooter can do for practice and to test a trigger pull. The ENTIRE POINT is to be able to get a solid grip, get the sights on target, and HOLD THE GUN STILL while pressing the trigger. If you move the gun at all while pressing the trigger, you throw the shot. This is like absolutely beginner marksmanship fundamentals, so the fact you think it’s a “gimmick” tells me all I need to know about your knowledge.

OP, be careful who you listen to as in anything, there are lots of people in the gun world with strong and incorrect opinions. Try out guns in person and pick the one you shoot best that fits your needs. Practice with it, dry fire at home and get range time, get instruction every couple months to help inform your training. My offer’s still on the table to come shoot at my range for free and try out any rental guns (or my personal guns) for free if you pay for your ammo.

You just made me laugh; I wasn't mad. You literally advocated for abusive sales techniques as if they were actually useful in determining a gun's fitness for the purpose. I told you how gun stores use these notions to sell guns.

I'll tell you a little secret: the sights exist to override any ergonomic deviations a gun may have away from the shooter's physiology. That's right: use the sights. Using the provided sights is a nice short cut.

I know nothing about shooting LMAO!!! Did you read my last few posts????

You are really funny!!!!

You also lost it about about my “holding the gun steady” comment. Dry fire is THE number one best thing any shooter can do for practice and to test a trigger pull. The ENTIRE POINT is to be able to get a solid grip, get the sights on target, and HOLD THE GUN STILL while pressing the trigger. If you move the gun at all while pressing the trigger, you throw the shot. This is like absolutely beginner marksmanship fundamentals, so the fact you think it’s a “gimmick” tells me all I need to know about your knowledge.

Oh even better!!!! LOLOLOLOL. Noobs don't know how to do that yet!

Go listen to advice from ANY of the top shooters in the world and you will find they all give this advice and themselves have preferred models for distinct ergonomic reasons.

OMG, you are hilarious. The top civilian shooters in the world are playing gun games and they use various mods because it improves THEIR shooting in THEIR CONTEXT a bit more. It's obvious that having a huge gas pedal, a mega-mag funnel, and a giant red dot all work so great on a SIG P365!!!

Some guns fit some people well and fit others like , and that GREATLY influences your ability to get a solid grip on the gun and be able to shoot accurately.

Even worse! LOL. After all, one has to be picky when picking up dropped guns in an effed up gun fight. Or that LCP Max or J-Frame snubbie that nobody admits to carrying fits sooooo perfectly. I guess you just forget that the current iteration of CCW American gun owning public is carrying the smallest 9mm pistol possible.

The lying is amazing.

Now I am going to say the truth:

A proficient shooter should be able to pick up any handgun, except a LeMat revolver , and shoot it well out to 15 yards. You can change that to 10 or 25 if you want to. But, they should pick it up, handle it safely at all times, know how to draw and holster the gun, be able to load and unload it quickly, diagnose and remediate malfunctions (stove pipes, failure to feed, double feeds), and shoot a full mag such that they get a fist sized group at that distance using any technique (single shot shooting at extension, double stop, Mosambiques/Hearts and Minds, etc). They should be able to get off the line of force ("Get off the X") and achieve that group. They can do it one handed or with two. SIG, Beretta, Glock, HK, revolver, 1911...doesn't matter. Pick it up. Shoot it competently cold. The gun fight doesn't care if Glock points a bit high, or the revolver a bit low, or SIG is too chunky and the double action is a bit hard to handle.

Make the hits with any handgun. That is proficiency.

 

[jreid29]

I'm a new gun owner, got my first one a month ago (Sig P320 X5 Legion), thinking that it would enough for home defense and fun at the range. Next thing I know I took two separate 16 hour handgun courses, another 16 hour one for CCW coming this month, been dry fire practicing almost every day, obsessing as I discover everything about firearms, and now I have a list of a bunch of guns I want to eventually own (carry, shotgun, and rifle). I have no idea how I got here.

Cut story short, I think my next one will be something I can carry. On this realm, I am looking for those pistols that are concealable but still fun to shoot, with a 4 inch barrel, and shorter grip module.

I'm looking for the best thing I can get under $1500. In this range, I have narrowed to these 2 pistols, purposely not including the P365 as I want something different than a Sig for my second one (and I think the Echelon and HK here are better options for me anyway, not to mention they look amazing, the Echelon feature rich and optics ready, and the HK with outstanding build quality).

I have been searching for comparisons between these 2, and have not run into much.

Spam me with your thoughts please.

Also, if there is something else I should consider, please share.

Thanks in advance!

Look into Da/Sa hammer fired. You may find you like them more.

 

[CWINSD]

If you're looking for something to carry, I think something smaller would be more appropriate. I feel like people are less likely to carry if the gun is larger or less comfortable to conceal.

If not a P365, then I'd take a good look at either a Hellcat or a Shield Plus. I'd suggest going to the range and trying them to see which works best for you.

But if you're set on either a VP9 or Echelon, I don't think there's a wrong choice. Both are great. The Echelon does offer more customization because it has an FCU but I'm an HK guy myself.

 

[weaverftw]

You just made me laugh; I wasn't mad. You literally advocated for abusive sales techniques as if they were actually useful in determining a gun's fitness for the purpose. I told you how gun stores use these notions to sell guns.

I know nothing about shooting LMAO!!! Did you read my last few posts????

You are really funny!!!!

I can’t with the !!!! ????? all the time and calling dry fire and proper grip technique “abusive sales techniques;” I’m ignoring you

 

[tomrkba]

Look into Da/Sa hammer fired. You may find you like them more.

They do have the added safety built in. You can place your thumb on the hammer while holstering the gun. If a jacket stay gets into the trigger guard, you'll know it and back off.

I once watched a guy shoot a hole through his back pocket with a SIG P229 because he pushed harder instead of backing off. Fortunately, the ground wasn't concrete and the bullet stopped just behind him and didn't hit anyone uprange.

 

[tomrkba]

I can’t with the !!!! ????? all the time and calling dry fire and proper grip technique “abusive sales techniques;” I’m ignoring you

Reading is fundamental!!! I never said dry fire was a sales technique!!!

Let me clarify for !!! you because you are slow:

!!! "How the gun feels in the hand" !!!
"Natural point". !!!
"Holding the gun steady" !!!

Dry fire is a necessary component of any training program!!!!

But you do you, Boo!!!

!!!