Announcement Important Update: Deposits Requests = Ban 🚨

[treelogger]

Many people who are hard-core pro 2A refuse to use PayPal out of principle.

Then use GunPal or GPal.



Oops, I forgot the sarcasm smiley.

 

[pikachu]

I know GAFS uses Paypal G&S (no notes) to mitigate low flair scammers, but I’ve always wondered how much buyer protection G&S actually insures since Paypal explicitly names “(j) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearms parts or accessories” as part of its Prohibited Activities in its user agreement.

https://www.paypal.com/us/legalhub/paypal/acceptableuse-full

I’ve never had to file a Paypal G&S claim before. If Paypal finds out we are using it for guns, could buyer protections be denied?

 

[ikeo1]

I’ve never had to file a Paypal G&S claim before. If Paypal finds out we are using it for guns, could buyer protections be denied?

I've had to and they refunded. Its not for a purchase, unless you are shipping. In the case we're mentioning, its for fuel & time to drive to you. You should not be using paypal for any thing that goes against their terms...

We only offer suggestions. Since, we're not involved in the transaction in any way, ultimately its up to you to decide. This might affect some people who don't want to use paypal, but its also against Zelle and Cashapp terms too.

We encourage FTF transactions that are lawful and comply with any terms and conditions by the company or applicable Federal and State laws.



Most of the time, if you're using Paypal G&S its enough to know you're dealing with a real person as they have a named account and can get the funds recouped. It's a lot harder to burn an account that way.

 

[socalgunowner909]

iykyk lol

 

[ikeo1]

View attachment 86732 iykyk lol

This, by far, is my favorite mod gif from back in the day...

 

[H. Bowman]

If that’s going to stop you, you don’t really want to sell it. Life is telling you to keep it and never sell.

Some people don't even have paypal because of previous gun item related purchases that paypal seized their account funds and kicked them off the platform for...which makes me question why 2A advocates would ever encourage further funding the platform who's owners are so vehemently opposed to our way of life.

 

[ikeo1]

Some people don't even have paypal because of previous gun item related purchases that paypal seized their account funds and kicked them off the platform for...which makes me question why 2A advocates would ever encourage further funding the platform who's owners are so vehemently opposed to our way of life.

It’s for gas, you’re convoluting the reason. If it’s for your time and gas money it’s not for the purchase of the item.

It’s not a hard question, I’ll give you an answer, 100% of the scams I’ve seen around here involve Zelle or CashApp and both platforms also have the same restrictions about 2A related purchases and will get you kicked off those platforms too.

I question why someone would question reducing the most common scam vector and consistently putting in place policies to promote a trusted community is a bad thing.

If you need an alternative, use Venmo with payment protection. The main thing is to have recourse. PayPal is suggested as most people haven’t had their accounts locked up for whatever reason.

Let’s be real, the group you’re talking about is extremely small. If you don’t want to sell an item because you won’t get paid upfront for gas, find someone closer. This is for deposits not for FTF, so don’t make it sound like it’s super limiting because it’s really not.

If you have a good reputation and badges, then I’m sure the buyer might be open to it. This is to prevent new users or limited activity users from requesting deposits. It’s buyers decision bottom line.

Otherwise what is your suggestion to prevent scams. Finding problems is easy, solutions are hard.

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

lots of people that dislike the use of paypal will use venmo iinstea, but what they don't know is that paypal owns venmo.

cash is king.

 

[NorCalBusa]

I can act as a "Title Company" would- send me the money and I'll hold it until the check clears, the merch is in hand and both sides say "cool". Then for a modest % fee, I'll send the dough.

 

[ikeo1]

lots of people that dislike the use of paypal will use venmo iinstea, but what they don't know is that paypal owns venmo.

cash is king.

Cash isn't what it used to be. I've been playing with the idea of using a multi-sig crypto contract using USDC, but the learning curve might be a bit much for the majority of users here.

These days, cash is a depreciating asset and will continue to lose value. Once the rates are cut, dollar will slide more, and asset prices will jump.

We don't want to get involved in transactions, but that would be the safest way to do it is have some escrow type smart contract that would release the funds once everything is approved. We're heading in that direction thanks to the Genius Act and soon to be Clarity Act. It'll be interesting but you need a neutral third party for these scenarios.

 

[ikeo1]

I can act as a "Title Company" would- send me the money and I'll hold it until the check clears, the merch is in hand and both sides say "cool". Then for a modest % fee, I'll send the dough.

This is actually an idea for armoryhq... The hard part is developing the smart contracts and educating users to use a system like this. Else, middle men are how they do it form PMsforsale on Reddit for a small fee. Smart contracts automates the process and will be the next stage of payment technology evolution.

• You interact with an AI assistant as a 3rd party escrow. You call them in, they tell you where to send the funds..
• Once buyer sends the funds. Item is shipped and tracking info uploaded to AI assistant by the seller
• AI assistant notifies buyer & seller when it's delivered.
• up to 7 day grace period before releasing funds or reply to AI assistant to release funds
• Funds released by smart contract directly to digital wallets
• Disputes require a mediator
• AI assistant would then send a link to provide feedback for the tx.
• Once filled out, you'd receive feedback immediately with the verified tx.
• No link would be required in the feedback since its verified

ETC.. IMO this is coming in the next few years once digital wallets get rolled out. Without the regime change, this wouldn't have been possible since the other party was so against crypto.

We have an AI assistant available but need to create the workflows for these actions.

Note: this isn't for caguns and wouldn't be for anything firearm related. First comes privacy enhancements.

Just some ideas I've been thinking about to battle against the likes of ebay.

 

[H. Bowman]

Preventing or at least minimizing scams is a great thing and I am a fan of anything that can be done to do so. Saying you'll ban people for requesting minimal deposits through zelle is a bit ridiculous, in my opinion, but like I've said before, not my house not my rules. I have several hundred purchases and sales through various websites and forums over the last bunch of years and can only remember a single time being scammed...and it was through F-ing Paypal and ebay of all things. Empty box was delivered, ebay said tracking showed it was delivered, seller sent ebay a picture of the item being packaged, ebay and paypal both denied my claim and I got screwed. Shortly after my account was locked because it was a firearm part/accessory (purchased on ebay and paid through paypal, remember) and enough money to buy a new pistol was locked up and inaccessible with it.

I'm surprised that there's no concern over Paypal banning accounts for deposits for firearms adjacent transactions, regardless of how the verbiage is when a claim is made. I'd bet my deposit amount that if the claim is made as "deposit for gas and time to meet up and transfer a gun through an FFL", they'd still use that as a way to seize assets and block accounts.

I don't have a rock solid solution to the problem, but banning people for trying to reasonably protect themselves by asking for a ten dollar deposit is silly.
Being minimally invested in following through with a transaction, and the risk of losing the cost of a cup of coffee, is a whole lot different ball park than losing the cost of the item.

I do agree that the crypto thing would be the "best" solution, but at the same time be VASTLY limiting in who would be able/willing to participate. Even though all the cryptos are well known and popular these days, the number of people actually using them or that understand/trust them is tiny. I also agree that the website shouldn't get involved in transactions. Opening it up to lawsuits sounds like a terrible idea, both on liability and just the huge amount of time and energy it would take to manage that whole fiasco of upset buyers and sellers.

In the end, it isn't my place or my rules or my anything other than input and ideas and opinions. Small deposits create emotional investment for the sender, and a modicum of surety for the receiver, that the sender intends to not waste their time, which is our most valuable asset of all. The cost of fuel and time wasted to go meet up with a no show isn't even sort of covered by a ten dollar deposit and no one's going to get rich off of a ten dollar scam on a gun forum, which everyone would know about within in an hour of it happening because a new thread would be made about it, but the psychology behind it makes it FAR more likely that the sender of said deposit will go through with the agreement.

Hell, maybe there could be a group-funded "insurance" type thing. Buyer sends a ten or twenty dollar deposit and if they get scammed by a scammy bag seller, they get reimbursed their cup of coffee by the fund. I'd contribute to that to minimize losses by honest folks. Everyone that's going to use marketplace kicks in a buck or three that sits in a pool to make victims of scams whole again.

 

[ikeo1]

Preventing or at least minimizing scams is a great thing and I am a fan of anything that can be done to do so. Saying you'll ban people for requesting minimal deposits through zelle is a bit ridiculous, in my opinion, but like I've said before, not my house not my rules. I have several hundred purchases and sales through various websites and forums over the last bunch of years and can only remember a single time being scammed...and it was through F-ing Paypal and ebay of all things. Empty box was delivered, ebay said tracking showed it was delivered, seller sent ebay a picture of the item being packaged, ebay and paypal both denied my claim and I got screwed. Shortly after my account was locked because it was a firearm part/accessory (purchased on ebay and paid through paypal, remember) and enough money to buy a new pistol was locked up and inaccessible with it.

I'm surprised that there's no concern over Paypal banning accounts for deposits for firearms adjacent transactions, regardless of how the verbiage is when a claim is made. I'd bet my deposit amount that if the claim is made as "deposit for gas and time to meet up and transfer a gun through an FFL", they'd still use that as a way to seize assets and block accounts.

I don't have a rock solid solution to the problem, but banning people for trying to reasonably protect themselves by asking for a ten dollar deposit is silly.
Being minimally invested in following through with a transaction, and the risk of losing the cost of a cup of coffee, is a whole lot different ball park than losing the cost of the item.

I do agree that the crypto thing would be the "best" solution, but at the same time be VASTLY limiting in who would be able/willing to participate. Even though all the cryptos are well known and popular these days, the number of people actually using them or that understand/trust them is tiny. I also agree that the website shouldn't get involved in transactions. Opening it up to lawsuits sounds like a terrible idea, both on liability and just the huge amount of time and energy it would take to manage that whole fiasco of upset buyers and sellers.

In the end, it isn't my place or my rules or my anything other than input and ideas and opinions. Small deposits create emotional investment for the sender, and a modicum of surety for the receiver, that the sender intends to not waste their time, which is our most valuable asset of all. The cost of fuel and time wasted to go meet up with a no show isn't even sort of covered by a ten dollar deposit and no one's going to get rich off of a ten dollar scam on a gun forum, which everyone would know about within in an hour of it happening because a new thread would be made about it, but the psychology behind it makes it FAR more likely that the sender of said deposit will go through with the agreement.

Hell, maybe there could be a group-funded "insurance" type thing. Buyer sends a ten or twenty dollar deposit and if they get scammed by a scammy bag seller, they get reimbursed their cup of coffee by the fund. I'd contribute to that to minimize losses by honest folks. Everyone that's going to use marketplace kicks in a buck or three that sits in a pool to make victims of scams whole again.

I think you're well intentioned, but the scenario you describe isn't how its happening.

• People are requesting 50% more than $50 deposit.
• The buyer has to report the seller
• Seller is a new account

In this post, I mention that there are some reasons where it could be ok, but that's up to the buyer to determine. This is why it says may ban, there's some leeway if you have an established reputation here and transactions. Ultimately, its up to the buyer. We haven't had many scams, and I'd like to keep it that way vs offer an insurance fund. We can never know who's being honest unfortunately. There's a lot of sob stories that like to be told to get people to give something.

Once its reported, we'll review the account but if the account is new and doesn't have any type of contribution posts, badges, etc. then the ban hammer comes down. This is common on GAFS and a number of other websites too. So it's not uncommon. We have a relatively low scam rate, this should reduce it further.

The reluctance to use paypal, but not zelle or cashapp even though they have the same rules is interesting though. You can use Venmo too. If you got banned from it, ask a buddy who's not banned to accept the payment. If it's not by principle, find a way man. More people will be protected by your minor inconvenience and anti paypal principles. It costs you nothing and is vastly more scalable. People will make judgement calls on their own.

As I've said to otheres, if you have a reputation AND posts, state clearly there's a deposit request in the listing. Don't sneak it in DM's. There's a pattern to scammers, that's what we look for and will ban.

Announcement  Post in thread 'Important Update: Deposits Requests = Ban 🚨'

Aug 18, 2025

I have listed parts/accessories for sale that include an option to ship. Are there payment rules for shipping sold items? By default I’ve been requesting Zelle/Venmo first, with the option of Paypal G&S if they want to offset fees for seller protections. Is that still allowed?

We don't have rules for shipped items. We might limit Zelle/Venmo to paid users.. You can ask them to cover fees no problem.

There might be an option to use Zelle/Venmo for trusted sellers based on reputation. We can adapt this when it makes sense to. I've seen a pickup in traffic and scammers too. This...

• ikeo1

 

[Plenty_Pack_556]

Venmo is owned by paypal. Can't really say someone has a issue with paypal then say venmo is good to go.

Scammers are figuring out to pay a small fee to be able to scam many times the amount they paid for service. Such as subscriptions, and Armslist is an example.

I would think the reputation from GAFS would matter more than "paid" members. Lots of CAguns "paid" members without a history of trades.

Example: +50 minimum on GAFS and Reddit verifiable account. For the use of online payment, ship.

 

[ikeo1]

I would think the reputation from GAFS would matter more than "paid" members. Lots of CAguns "paid" members without a history of trades.

Example: +50 minimum on GAFS and Reddit verifiable account. For the use of online payment, ship.

I haven't rolled it out here but like the CGN verification we also have a GAFS verification. Paid members use their CC so they're vetted to an extent. Reddit is also not a verifiable account. GAFS's has a lot of scammers. We also offer 2FA here too and other options to secure accounts.

That's ultimately paid if we have to verify you because its labor.

I'd rather have a handful people inconvenienced, than people over time scammed. So, it is what it is.

 

[ronzkie21]

Yeah, let's make CAGuns marketplace like r/GAFS. I can imagine us Californians helping each other out. Let's be honest to each other. Let's get to the point where buyers actually get what they paid for. I have +13 flair on GAFS (3 sell) and +1 here (1 sell). I know it's not a lot but when I posted ads and got them sold, I delivered. Being truthful isn't hard and it's free.

 

[H. Bowman]

I don't even know what gfas is. Or "+13 flair." Is it like dungeons and dragons?

 

[pikachu]

Yeah, let's make CAGuns marketplace like r/GAFS. I can imagine us Californians helping each other out. Let's be honest to each other. Let's get to the point where buyers actually get what they paid for. I have +13 flair on GAFS (3 sell) and +1 here (1 sell). I know it's not a lot but when I posted ads and got them sold, I delivered. Being truthful isn't hard and it's free.

To play devils advocate here, I’ve read multiple stories of traders with very high flair on GAFS for whatever reason break bad and scam people out of hundreds or thousands of dollars.

It could be their accounts were hacked, or they just went rogue and cashed out… online transactions with strangers that require trust inherently carry some risk.

Barring the risks of violent crime,
face to face with cold hard cash seems the ‘safest’ trust-less method of transactions.

 

[smoothy8500]

Yeah, I'm fine with using PayPal to charge and/or pay a "deposit" to personal sale........Your house, your rules. I hate flakes, so unfortunately it's needed.

 

[pikachu]

I have several hundred purchases and sales through various websites and forums over the last bunch of years and can only remember a single time being scammed...and it was through F-ing Paypal and ebay of all things. Empty box was delivered, ebay said tracking showed it was delivered, seller sent ebay a picture of the item being packaged, ebay and paypal both denied my claim and I got screwed. Shortly after my account was locked because it was a firearm part/accessory (purchased on ebay and paid through paypal, remember) and enough money to buy a new pistol was locked up and inaccessible with it.

Good to know. I was not aware of this Paypal G&S empty box scam and claim denial vulnerability. I will adjust my online transaction risk assessment and tolerance based on your unfortunate experience. Thanks @H. Bowman for sharing.