One in the chamber or no?

[john_marsten_1873]

You can carry however you choose. The real question is can you win that way.

If you can win this challenge/drill 4/5 times, carry unloaded. It’s called the “first move” challenge:

If real guns or live fire, face down range at 10 yards on a single 8” steel plate. If you have dummy/airsoft guns you can face each other.

1. Find a person of equal or better skill level
2. Holster as you normally carry you EDC
3. Wait for your partner to make the first move before starting your draw.
4. First shot on target wins. If you can beat them with your regular draw (and rack, if applicable) 4/5 times that will tell you whether carrying loaded/unloaded is viable

 

[rodralig]

You can carry however you choose. The real question is can you win that way.

If you can win this challenge/drill 4/5 times, carry unloaded. It’s called the “first move” challenge:

If real guns or live fire, face down range at 5-7 yards on a single 8” steel plate. If you have dummy/airsoft guns you can face each other.

1. Find a person of equal or better skill level
2. Holster as you normally carry you EDC
3. Wait for your partner to make the first move before starting your draw.
4. First shot on target wins. If you can beat them with your regular draw (and rack, if applicable) 4/5 times that will tell you whether carrying loaded/unloaded is viable

ITTS in SoCal has a variation of this drill that they use to demonstrate why the draw needs to be smooth and efficient. In most defensive encounters, the defender is already behind the power curve.

1. Distance to target is about 3 to 5 yards.
2. Person A starts with the firearm holstered and both arms extended straight out in front.
3. Person B starts with the firearm holstered and hands relaxed at their sides.
4. When the instructor calls “Go,” Person A chooses when to initiate, anytime within 10 to 30 seconds. Person A drops their arms, draws, and fires one head shot.
5. The instant Person A begins to move, Person B reacts, draws, and fires two center mass shots.

The point is to show just how much of an advantage the person initiating the action has, and why unnecessary or inefficient movement or setup can matter when you are already reacting to a threat.

 

[DJD100]

You can also carry a CCW with a manual safety variant, like the M18, P365's.. 2011, etc

I'd caution that the Sig P320/M18/M17 IMO has an inferior manual safety design that does not block the sear directly, rather it only blocks the trigger bar, so if it's also inferior striker safety design fails (torsion spring design with one leg un-captured), and the striker falls off the sear due to incorrect parts installed (a 10mm take down lever in a 9mm gun), a slight trigger pull of only 0.09" (no where near the break), along with sloppy tolerances and/or worn MIM parts, the P320 can drop the fully cocked striker resulting in an accidental discharge.

Here's what has been proven regarding the P320/M18/M17's striker safety...

• The Striker Safety needs to move only 0.036" to disengage from the striker (brand new P320).
• That correlates to a trigger pull of only 0.09" to fully disengage striker safety (brand new P320).
• The trigger breaks and the sear releases the striker at 0.201" (brand new P320).

Sig now recommends carrying the P320 with an empty chamber. The SIG P320 manual now states "The most effective safety is to carry your pistol without a round in the chamber, and to load a round in the chamber only when ready to fire".

The Sig P365's design is much better and safer as the manual safety blocks the sear directly, plus it has a much better striker safety design (similar to most other semi-auto pistols (a fully captured coil spring and plunger).

FYI, Sig has lost a couple of P320 accidental discharge cases...

George Abrahams ($11 Million, November 2024): A federal jury in Pennsylvania awarded an Army veteran $1 million in compensatory and $10 million in punitive damages after finding the P320 was defectively designed and negligently sold.

Jacques Desrosiers (~$2.35 Million, June 2024): A federal jury in Georgia ruled in favor of a former police officer who was wounded when his holstered P320 allegedly discharged; a judge later denied a motion for a retrial.

 

[mossy]

If you aren't carrying with a loaded chamber you shouldn't be carrying a gun.

 

[miles888]

I'd caution that the Sig P320/M18/M17 IMO has an inferior manual safety design that does not block the sear directly, rather it only blocks the trigger bar, so if it's also inferior striker safety design fails (torsion spring design with one leg un-captured), and the striker falls off the sear due to incorrect parts installed (a 10mm take down lever in a 9mm gun), a slight trigger pull of only 0.09" (no where near the break), along with sloppy tolerances and/or worn MIM parts, the P320 can drop the fully cocked striker resulting in an accidental discharge.

Here's what has been proven regarding the P320/M18/M17's striker safety...

• The Striker Safety needs to move only 0.036" to disengage from the striker (brand new P320).
• That correlates to a trigger pull of only 0.09" to fully disengage striker safety (brand new P320).
• The trigger breaks and the sear releases the striker at 0.201" (brand new P320).

Sig now recommends carrying the P320 with an empty chamber. The SIG P320 manual now states "The most effective safety is to carry your pistol without a round in the chamber, and to load a round in the chamber only when ready to fire".

The Sig P365's design is much better and safer as the manual safety blocks the sear directly, plus it has a much better striker safety design (similar to most other semi-auto pistols (a fully captured coil spring and plunger).

FYI, Sig has lost a couple of P320 accidental discharge cases...

George Abrahams ($11 Million, November 2024): A federal jury in Pennsylvania awarded an Army veteran $1 million in compensatory and $10 million in punitive damages after finding the P320 was defectively designed and negligently sold.

Jacques Desrosiers (~$2.35 Million, June 2024): A federal jury in Georgia ruled in favor of a former police officer who was wounded when his holstered P320 allegedly discharged; a judge later denied a motion for a retrial.

Video or it didn’t happen

 

[vplaza96]

One in the chamber always.

 

[UserName12345]

I don’t carry with 1 in the chamber. In fact, none of my firearms have 1 in the chamber. I’ve trained without one in the chamber, it just gives me a little better peace of mind.

That extra second or fraction thereof, whether it saves or costs me my life, is time well spent to confirm target and make sure IF I have to pull the trigger then it’ll be for the right reasons.

 

[Gawernator]

I'd caution that the Sig P320/M18/M17 IMO has an inferior manual safety design that does not block the sear directly, rather it only blocks the trigger bar, so if it's also inferior striker safety design fails (torsion spring design with one leg un-captured), and the striker falls off the sear due to incorrect parts installed (a 10mm take down lever in a 9mm gun), a slight trigger pull of only 0.09" (no where near the break), along with sloppy tolerances and/or worn MIM parts, the P320 can drop the fully cocked striker resulting in an accidental discharge.

Here's what has been proven regarding the P320/M18/M17's striker safety...

• The Striker Safety needs to move only 0.036" to disengage from the striker (brand new P320).
• That correlates to a trigger pull of only 0.09" to fully disengage striker safety (brand new P320).
• The trigger breaks and the sear releases the striker at 0.201" (brand new P320).

Sig now recommends carrying the P320 with an empty chamber. The SIG P320 manual now states "The most effective safety is to carry your pistol without a round in the chamber, and to load a round in the chamber only when ready to fire".

The Sig P365's design is much better and safer as the manual safety blocks the sear directly, plus it has a much better striker safety design (similar to most other semi-auto pistols (a fully captured coil spring and plunger).

FYI, Sig has lost a couple of P320 accidental discharge cases...

George Abrahams ($11 Million, November 2024): A federal jury in Pennsylvania awarded an Army veteran $1 million in compensatory and $10 million in punitive damages after finding the P320 was defectively designed and negligently sold.

Jacques Desrosiers (~$2.35 Million, June 2024): A federal jury in Georgia ruled in favor of a former police officer who was wounded when his holstered P320 allegedly discharged; a judge later denied a motion for a retrial.

They’ve done much better with lawsuits than Glock has. Courts ruled there is no issue with the firearm, the class actions all failed recently and the DoD confirmed via testing and a decade of use the gun works well and is safe. The newest design of the M18 even surpassed the M9 for rounds fired without a stoppage which is crazy. No need to spread FUD.

I don’t know of any conceal carrier that’s had an issue, it’s an extremely popular handgun, both in the military and law enforcement as well as private sales.

 

[Brandon Breeze]

There is no scenario where I would carry on an empty chamber. I even practice drawing and racking the slide a LOT. Bare minimum you'll be adding half a second to your time from drawing to being able to put rounds on target. More than that for the majority of people since they are likely not practicing this a lot in dry fire. When tenths of seconds could be the difference between you walking away or you going into a hole in the ground... don't leave your life up to chance by carrying on an empty chamber. That's not even taking into account that you might short stroke, cause a malfunction and not be able to figure it out under intense pressure where fine muscle movements are thrown out the window by your brain.

 

[Bobalover209]

Massad Ayoob had a good video on this topic, worth a watch.

 

[ButteFlyFisher]

I might be the one of the few that doesn't carry one in the chamber although I used to carry one in the chamber back in the days and even now I recommend people to do so. I have two kids under 5 and they are very clingy to me. I trust my handguns but don't trust my kids to accidentally pull something as they can't see what's under my shirt even though I know very well that the trigger is hidden in the holster. I train like that as well so that it's in my muscle memory to rack after drawing from holster. Like you said, to each their own because everyone has different circumstances. At the end of the day at least it's better than not carrying at all.

Have you considered carrying with a manual safety?

 

[Hit Factor]

That extra second or fraction thereof, whether it saves or costs me my life, is time well spent to confirm target and make sure IF I have to pull the trigger then it’ll be for the right reasons.

If you had a malfunction every time you drew your gun would you be equally optimistic about the time you had to spend clearing it before you could stop an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury?

 

[UserName12345]

If you had a malfunction every time you drew your gun would you be equally optimistic about the time you had to spend clearing it before you could stop an imminent threat of death or great bodily injury?

If I had a malfunction every time I drew my weapon, I have more things to worry about than whether I have 1 in the pipe or not.

I’m not saying my way is the right way, it’s just the way that works with the way I train.

If professionals are able to ND in a controlled high stress environment, there’s a non zero percent chance that my risk of NDing is significantly higher. Unless you’re telling me that you shoot and train more than some of the professionals.

 

[Hit Factor]

Massad Ayoob had a good video on this topic, worth a watch.

I’m not much of a Massad Ayoob fan, but this was actually very enlightening. I like what he had to say about long guns for home defense being kept cruiser ready. But for anyone not willing to watch the whole video, here’s the final verdict for handgun carry (at 7:42): “The answer to the question is chambered. If you’re not comfortable with chambered, revolver.”

 

[Hit Factor]

I’m not saying my way is the right way, it’s just the way that works with the way I train.

Do you train to do this one-handed? Watch the Ayoob video Bobalover209 posted above.

 

[john_marsten_1873]

If I had a malfunction every time I drew my weapon, I have more things to worry about than whether I have 1 in the pipe or not.

I’m not saying my way is the right way, it’s just the way that works with the way I train.

If professionals are able to ND in a controlled high stress environment, there’s a non zero percent chance that my risk of NDing is significantly higher. Unless you’re telling me that you shoot and train more than some of the professionals.

What do you mean by professionals?

 

[beardo]

Have you considered carrying with a manual safety?

One of the 3 handguns on my permit does have a safety (other two is off roster so doesn't have safety). I get that the safety needs a significant amount of pressure to be flipped but in my case I honestly don't trust it. Now I am not starting a whole new debate on "safeties are not safe" or anything but just saying I have a bit of unique case where it's not 100% bombproof for me. A good example is that sometimes my 2 year old would just climb on me and I can see a scenario where he can flip the safety with his foot if he can get his toes in the right angle.

 

[UserName12345]

Do you train to do this one-handed? Watch the Ayoob video Bobalover209 posted above.

I have. I trained racking one handed in various positions. Honestly I can watch all the YouTube videos in the world but this is my personal risk vs reward preference. It’s not the end all be all, it’s just a person with a different perspective.

 

[Brandon Breeze]

If I had a malfunction every time I drew my weapon, I have more things to worry about than whether I have 1 in the pipe or not.

I’m not saying my way is the right way, it’s just the way that works with the way I train.

If professionals are able to ND in a controlled high stress environment, there’s a non zero percent chance that my risk of NDing is significantly higher. Unless you’re telling me that you shoot and train more than some of the professionals.

You're digging yourself in a deeper hole. We train more than the "professionals", I promise you that.

By not having a round chambered, you are essentially creating a malfunction that you have to mitigate before you even get into the fight. On top of that, the likelihood of you then inducing an actual malfunction as I mentioned above is highly likely.

Your best case scenario is adding half a second or more to your draw time before you can put shots on target. Even that is a stretch for most people... IF you don't then create another malfunction that you have to figure out... when your life depends on it.

There is no way anyone can justify carrying on an empty chamber. Too much risk for no reward. If you're not comfortable you need more training plain and simple.

 

[Bobalover209]

If I had a malfunction every time I drew my weapon, I have more things to worry about than whether I have 1 in the pipe or not.

I’m not saying my way is the right way, it’s just the way that works with the way I train.

If professionals are able to ND in a controlled high stress environment, there’s a non zero percent chance that my risk of NDing is significantly higher. Unless you’re telling me that you shoot and train more than some of the professionals.

Can you expand on who you consider "professionals"? Police and military are considered professionals and have NDs for sure, but I wouldn't use them broadly to measure against because there are certainly many of us "civilians"better trained and capable with firearms than many of these "professionals".