Being Flagged while doing Public CCW Quals?

[john_marsten_1873]

His words were that he can shoot as much as he wants and never has to pay for ammo. He was nodding towards his handgun when he told me, so I don’t know if rifle calibers are also included.

It’s a static range, as far as I can tell. I didn’t ask if there was an action training bay. I doubt that. They have training twice yearly unless they belong to a specialized unit.

Ok. I'm in the Bay Area but in trainings we often get folks from all around California. The training budget and access seems to limited for everyone - even the specialized groups - but ammo access depends on the municipality.

Some ask how much ammo I go through and I said ~1000rds per month (pistol), 3-500 (rifle) - but also a lot of dry-fire practice ("dry-fire practice?!?").

Some precincts told me 4k- 5k rounds per year, some said no official limit but if people starting shooting 1k per month they'd likely set one.

I also get that the job itself for most cops is not actually shooting. We're all training for a moment(s) that we (most of us) hope will never come.

 

[JC2020]

Ok. I'm in the Bay Area but in trainings we often get folks from all around California. The training budget and access seems to limited for everyone - even the specialized groups - but ammo access depends on the municipality.

Some ask how much ammo I go through and I said ~1000rds per month (pistol), 3-500 (rifle) - but also a lot of dry-fire practice ("dry-fire practice?!?").

Some precincts told me 4k- 5k rounds per year, some said no official limit but if people starting shooting 1k per month they'd likely set one.

I also get that the job itself for most cops is not actually shooting. We're all training for a moment(s) that we (most of us) hope will never come.

Honestly, if officers get 4k-5k rounds a year of 9mm, that should be enough to be proficient. I think training is very important, but not everyone needs to be extraordinary.

If every LEO did that, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be surprised those times I’ve taken a course with a LEO and he or she isn’t as good as I’d expect. Even shooting 200 rounds a month would be enough for static shooting.

I’d love to be gifted that many rounds a year; I only go through about 6k a year at best, anyways. Just not enough time to get to the range between work and family.

Also, 500 rounds/month of rifle is awesome! I should really spend more time doing that. Maybe when my kids get to college age…

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Honestly, if officers get 4k-5k rounds a year of 9mm, that should be enough to be proficient.

They "get" that much but the majority of them don't even come close to using that much, from what I've been told. Also, it's not the amount of ammo it's how you use the ammo you've got.

But if every officer used all 5k rounds, we'd likely see even lower limits set. The agency heads just get to say they give them [access to] that much ammo to train with as a talking point.

I think training is very important, but not everyone needs to be extraordinary.

The biggest thing here is to have a standard and maintain it. I think there are still some great uses of the static line but at some point they should focus more on dynamic training. And any good training/trainer should be able to help you understand your current level, what you need to work on and what you need to practice to improve. So every range session, round fired, draw and trigger press after that is intentional.

I’d love to be gifted that many rounds a year; I only go through about 6k a year at best, anyways. Just not enough time to get to the range between work and family.

Also, 500 rounds/month of rifle is awesome! I should really spend more time doing that. Maybe when my kids get to college age…

This is where my dry-fire practice comes in. I try to just get in a 10 minute session per day with a theme every month. Honestly, that's more rifle ammo than I should be using right now. I should see far more progress with that many rounds so I'm going to be more intentional with my rifle training.

But yeah, the struggle is real! I've convinced my family that this "preparedness" training is important right now but my time is running out on that. ("I'm having no fun whatsoever! This is to keep us all prepared and safe!")

 

[john_marsten_1873]

If I had to pick a baseline standard for LEO I'd say Sharp Shooter IDPA [5x5] classification in one optics, 1 irons division. USPSA middle of C class for the same divisions and any firearms they carry. While there far more that should be done, I think that should be the baseline for marksmanship and dynamics.

For CCW, say I'd IDPA marksman in whatever divisions their carry pistols would fit in. The IDPA classification [5x5] is more marksmanship basics focused (Bill Drill, one hand, reload).

 

[Gawernator]

That's comparing apples to oranges something that's not even edible. You don't get a drivers license for defense.

Yeah the car is more of an offensive killing machine

 

[john_marsten_1873]

Yeah the car is more of an offensive killing machine

By proportion, how many cars are used in homicides or suicides vs. guns? (meaning intentional or "offensive")

I don't really want to argue this because it's just a regurgitated talking point and easily dismantled. It's an extremely poor counter-argument to 2A restrictions and makes people feel like we're not competent enough to have a critical discussion.

 

[Gawernator]

By proportion, how many cars are used in homicides or suicides vs. guns? (meaning intentional or "offensive")

I don't really want to argue this because it's just a regurgitated talking point and easily dismantled. It's an extremely poor counter-argument to 2A restrictions and makes people feel like we're not competent enough to have a critical discussion.

Oh cars by far, wayyyy more dangerous

 

[NorCalBusa]

Having politicians who have zero gun experience set the laws and policies for firearms leads to these issues. The idea is to come as close to banning them completely as possible. Hence the emphasis on adding qualifications to getting a CCW without truly focusing on what is taught, and what is useful.

This happens for every law to some extent, but they usually at least confer with those affected by the law to have some expert opinions involved.

Honestly, seeing those who want to have a CCW who never practice is frightening. Why carry if you have no chance of hitting your target in the case where you actually need it? Thats a level of insanity I don’t understand. The CCW becomes worse than useless, it is a fatal liability.

There must be some logic to the entire CCW process. Making it extremely expensive and onerous to obtain a CCW is unfair. But having no skill or ability to operate the firearm is apparently a common thing as well.

The logic is it results in less gun owners and guns. Full stop.

 

[PlinkyDinky]

Having politicians who have zero gun experience set the laws and policies for firearms leads to these issues.

Politicians setting laws about things with which they have zero experience is, of course, a problem across the board. That's why educating them is so important, and some have been known to change their stance, even on touchy issues, when people help them understand better.

 

[PlinkyDinky]

Oh cars by far, wayyyy more dangerous

Eh, per the CDC, firearm deaths outpaced motor-vehicle deaths in 2024 by about 3,200: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

And if you're feeling inclined to hand-wave that away my making spurious claims about the CDC cooking the numbers due to some shady agenda, please don't bother.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

By proportion, how many cars are used in homicides or suicides vs. guns? (meaning intentional or "offensive")

I don't really want to argue this because it's just a regurgitated talking point and easily dismantled. It's an extremely poor counter-argument to 2A restrictions and makes people feel like we're not competent enough to have a critical discussion.

It seems as if you don't understand analogies.

 

[grandpapeepap]

It seems as if you don't understand analogies.

thats where an idea wears another idea as a hat right?

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Oh cars by far, wayyyy more dangerous

Except Tesla's full self-driving (FSD) which is 7x safer than humans, sees in all directions at once, and has superhuman reaction time. Most people have no idea but it's been fascinating to see the evolution.

This is a paradigm shift and it will change personal transport forever.

 

[ef9boy88]

Yes. The deputies at 2 of my quals told they used to be very “pro 2A”, but after taking that job they’re worried about both the lack of training and preparedness along with the rapidly increasing volume of CCW applications.

Assuming either LASD or San Diego based on the "increasing volume".

 

[john_marsten_1873]

It seems as if you don't understand analogies.

I'm saying that's a poor comparison to argue in support of 2A.

When I discuss that with people who support firearm restrictions or are otherwise ambivalent about it, they often cite people who bring that up and say something to the effect of "When they said cars are more dangerous...I realized this isn't even someone I can take seriously. At the very least I hope people like them don't own guns".

 

[grandpapeepap]

I'm saying that's a poor comparison to argue in support of 2A.

When I discuss that with people who support firearm restrictions or are otherwise ambivalent about it, they often cite people who bring that up and say something to the effect of "When they said cars are more dangerous...I realized this isn't even someone I can take seriously. At the very least I hope people like them don't own guns".

I enjoy when they bring up car registration and the like to compare to gun ownership, their tunes change really quickly when you tell them you can modify a car a whole lot if you dont plan on it being street legal and keeping it on private property. "Can I modify my gun like I could a car" .

 

[Sheepdog1968]

The one instructor I took a lot of classes from was Louis Awerbuck in the late 2000s into early 2010s. He had been doing teaching for 30+ years. He felt for hand guns to stay proficient, one should shoot every other week and could get away with about 65 rounds. For long arms, he felt every other month was sufficient. I wish I would have asked him more specifics at the time but I didn’t.

Honestly, if officers get 4k-5k rounds a year of 9mm, that should be enough to be proficient. I think training is very important, but not everyone needs to be extraordinary.

If every LEO did that, I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t be surprised those times I’ve taken a course with a LEO and he or she isn’t as good as I’d expect. Even shooting 200 rounds a month would be enough for static shooting.

I’d love to be gifted that many rounds a year; I only go through about 6k a year at best, anyways. Just not enough time to get to the range between work and family.

Also, 500 rounds/month of rifle is awesome! I should really spend more time doing that. Maybe when my kids get to college age

 

[JC2020]

The logic is it results in less gun owners and guns. Full stop.

Yes, that’s the purpose. I understand their reasoning, even though I disagree with it.

That said, gun ownership is increasing…

Politicians setting laws about things with which they have zero experience is, of course, a problem across the board. That's why educating them is so important, and some have been known to change their stance, even on touchy issues, when people help them understand better.

This is certainly true, but their goal is to ban guns entirely, not to understand what laws would make the most sense for people to own guns safely. The decision not to include gun advocates is intentional.

Eh, per the CDC, firearm deaths outpaced motor-vehicle deaths in 2024 by about 3,200: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/injury.htm

And if you're feeling inclined to hand-wave that away my making spurious claims about the CDC cooking the numbers due to some shady agenda, please don't bother.

Interestingly, from the very same source, drug deaths outpaced both gun and motor vehicle deaths by a significant margin:

MVC deaths: 41,241

Gun deaths: 44,447 (about 58% are suicide). So about 15,364 homicides, 450 unintentional deaths and about 636 law enforcement involved fatalities.

Flu deaths: 45,000 [other sources]

Drug overdose deaths: 79,384

 

[PlinkyDinky]

Well, the last time I checked, hard drugs were still illegal, and even efforts to decriminalize them talk a lot about the importance of getting people off of them.

 

[JC2020]

Well, the last time I checked, hard drugs were still illegal, and even efforts to talk a lot about the importance of getting people off of them.

I wasn’t disagreeing with you…

But gun related homicides and suicides are very illegal also. Hence all the efforts to regulate guns.

I would love the more collaborative approach to drug deaths applied to gun violence. But the response has been to try and ban guns.