Question Campfire Talk: When disagreements start about hunting….Rude or just being honest? Religion involved?

[jacrispies]

Please enlighten me on the digging I need to do - I’m not being sarcastic, I’m full of epistemic humility and actually open to see evidence, I just haven’t seen it.

I wouldn’t be in the “we don’t know” camp; more of the “we can’t know” camp - the question of whether some Supreme being created the universe/physical/material world is just not a question science is equipped to answer. That’s not the point of science.

I’m actually more of an analytic idealist from a philosophical point of view but I have problems imagining the likelihood of any particular Bronze Age goat herders’ deity being being “the one” who made all of this, and as Wolf mentioned if “he” was, I certainly would be on the other team’s side based on what the dude is purported to have done in his book…

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[Wolkenflieger]

To make objective statements in a God-less universe is humorous. At least consistent athiests believe they can't make any absolute conclusions, there is no objective morality, and there is no such thing as right or wrong. Saying there is absolutely no God is wrong from your worldview. The correct answer based on your worldview would be "I don't know", yet the depths of your heart reveal a deeper motive that even absolute proof won't change. You need to be honest to yourself.

@weaverftw
Some Christians do blindly believe things with zero evidence. You may agree with me, as I believe those Christians need to dive deep for truth and find actual experiential and revelatory evidence to back up their beliefs. I personally speak not from a "I'm blindly guessing there is a God so I put my faith in that" but rather a "I've experienced something more real than reality itself and nothing other than God can explain what has happened many times over." I was changed overnight! I cannot possibly justify everything that God thinks or does. But to me, the evidence points to the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. To be set there is zero evidence to this, you would be living in obvious deceit because you only need to do a little digging.

Some people choose to make it their life mission to take these beliefs down, probably because they were likely hurt in the past growing up in a religious environment. It's unfortunate. People misrepresent God all the time. We have failed religion. But it is relationship with God Himself that brings us life, not religion.

*atheist. Let's spell that right to start.

Do you believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy? How about Allah and Vishnu? There is no reason to hedge an obviously true statement about reality. If you think God is a nuanced position, prove it exists as a starting point. You can't, but I invite you to try.

Chances are good that you cannot even define a god without contradicting yourself or suspending the laws of logic (yes this is a thing) or physics.

Don't feel bad, nobody can prove their god exists, and few can coherently define "god" without massive logical contradiction. A contradictory definition is generally omitted from serious consideration because of the internal inconsistency.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

My father, a California State appeals court Judge raised as a Southern Baptist once told me the Bible was the greatest book of fiction ever written.

I find the missing books of the Bible to be more fascinating than many of the included books. They were not included because Rome didn't believe they followed the narrative.

Recent archeologist discoveries have also raised doubts about some Biblical stories. Either they didn't happen or the stories were changed or the dates don't line up.

If you consider the New Testament wasn't written until 300 years after the death of Jesus one would figure they got some stuff wrong or filled in some of the blanks.

It is also funny that the books we normally see in the Bible were simply the result of a vote at various councils. There were anonymous authors, and the books conflict deeply. Even if we grant that this "god" exists, it's by any reasonable measure "evil" and shouldn't be worshipped...unless one worships mass-murderers...

 

[grandpapeepap]

You have faith that there is no God and the bible is obviously false. It takes a certain amount of faith to believe that since you can't prove there isn't a God just as I myself can't prove there is. I can give you reasons why I believe and you can consider them but it comes down to faith in one or another. There have always been believers in God and non believers. Most likely nothing said here will change anyone's mind about what they believe. Most people have blind faith in one or the other. They don't search out the other side (believers keep believing; non believers keep not believing). But once I came to a point in my life where I believed the bible is the word of God, then that became my source of truth about God.

Do you believe you are one of the 144k making it into heaven like the last book of the bible says? Do you think God can change his mind when he has said he doesnt change his mind since he isnt a man in the bible? Do you follow Jesus do unto others? God spits out lukewarm christians

 

[grandpapeepap]

It is also funny that the books we normally see in the Bible were simply the result of a vote at various councils. There were anonymous authors, and the books conflict deeply. Even if we grant that this "god" exists, it's by any reasonable measure "evil" and shouldn't be worshipped...unless one worships mass-murderers...

They treat the bible like a buffet and pick and choose which parts to follow and which parts matter.

 

[Colt Collector]

Lack of belief in something due to lack of evidence is not the same thing as a positive belief in something despite lack of evidence. Your argument, while it’s a false equivalency, might hold weight if we’re talking about deism, but as soon as you start talking about specific books and sky daddies who make rules and influence the material world, that is clearly a leap of faith above and beyond just saying “I haven’t seen enough evidence so I don’t believe ‘x’.”

I’m not an anti-theist but cmon let’s be honest here.

Good point. The lack of belief because of lack of evidence is not the same as the belief in something despite the evidence. Just like innocent until proven guilty is not the same as guilty until proven innocent. But I'm saying both take a faith. There's no proof in either argument. You can say I don't believe because there's not enough evidence. But even if there was evidence would you believe? Pharisees were right there witnessing miracles and they didn't believe because Jesus didn't fit into what they thought God should be. And some don't want to believe because of the life changing consequences.

 

[weaverftw]

Good point. The lack of belief because of lack of evidence is not the same as the belief in something despite the evidence. Just like innocent until proven guilty is not the same as guilty until proven innocent. But I'm saying both take a faith. There's no proof in either argument. You can say I don't believe because there's not enough evidence. But even if there was evidence would you believe? Pharisees were right there witnessing miracles and they didn't believe because Jesus didn't fit into what they thought God should be. And some don't want to believe because of the life changing consequences.

I’m not a Pharisee, so i don’t know why you draw that conclusion about me. Like I said, I’m not an anti-theist Christopher Hitchens-type (though he was a very witty journalist), and I am truly quite open. In fact, I’ve read a lot of Bernardo Kastrup recently and concluded that it’s unlikely there is a physical/material world at all; I’m very open to changing my metaphysical outlook and try to be very honest about what I know and don’t know, and how I know it (epistemic humility).

I think most people, believers and nonbelievers, choose their position based at least partially on either the perceived or subconscious consequences/ramifications of the worldview; that’s not a charge you can pin on only atheists.

 

[Colt Collector]

I’m not a Pharisee, so i don’t know why you draw that conclusion about me. Like I said, I’m not an anti-theist Christopher Hitchens-type (though he was a very witty journalist), and I am truly quite open. In fact, I’ve read a lot of Bernardo Kastrup recently and concluded that it’s unlikely there is a physical/material world at all; I’m very open to changing my metaphysical outlook and try to be very honest about what I know and don’t know, and how I know it (epistemic humility).

I think most people, believers and nonbelievers, choose their position based at least partially on either the perceived or subconscious consequences/ramifications of the worldview; that’s not a charge you can pin on only atheists.

I did not call you a pharisee or imply you would not believe if you were given evidence to do so. It was a statement about how some people would not believe even if there was evidence.

I'm not the type to argue with people about their beliefs. I'm just willing to discuss why I believe with anyone who wants to know.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Good point. The lack of belief because of lack of evidence is not the same as the belief in something despite the evidence. Just like innocent until proven guilty is not the same as guilty until proven innocent. But I'm saying both take a faith. There's no proof in either argument. You can say I don't believe because there's not enough evidence. But even if there was evidence would you believe? Pharisees were right there witnessing miracles and they didn't believe because Jesus didn't fit into what they thought God should be. And some don't want to believe because of the life changing consequences.

What kind of proof do you have that Santa Claus isn't real? The position of faith and lack of belief in any god...they are not equal.

The god claim is 100% unsupported by any tangible, testable evidence and the scientific method, and it's reasonable not to believe such claims for the same reason you wouldn't believe someone could fly unaided, or that an I invisible green dragon lives in my garage.

Hope and faith are not evidence, nor is a contradictory book written by anonymous authors who were trying to explain the world with Bronze Age ignorance. That's why the Bible talks about the four corners of the Earth, claims a bat is a bird, and mentions that a hare chewd its cud like a cow (it does not).

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Do you believe you are one of the 144k making it into heaven like the last book of the bible says? Do you think God can change his mind when he has said he doesnt change his mind since he isnt a man in the bible? Do you follow Jesus do unto others? God spits out lukewarm christians

The 144k "elect" is an idea from the JWs, or Jehovah"s Witnesses. I haven't seen Colt mention that he's a JW but maybe I missed it?

 

[Colt Collector]

What kind of proof do you have that Santa Claus isn't real? The position of faith and lack of belief in any god...they are not equal.

The god claim is 100% unsupported by any tangible, testable evidence and the scientific method, and it's reasonable not to believe such claims for the same reason you wouldn't believe someone could fly unaided, or that an I invisible green dragon lives in my garage.

Hope and faith are not evidence, nor is a contradictory book written by anonymous authors who were trying to explain the world with Bronze Age ignorance. That's why the Bible talks about the four corners of the Earth, claims a bat is a bird, and mentions that a hare chewd its cud like a cow (it does not).

Whether Santa Claus is real or not real doesn't really matter to me. I've neither tried to prove or disprove his existence. His existence because it's absurd means it's most likely false. BUT that we are here living on a life sustaining planet with water, a sun, food, surrounded by animals, and have these working bodies does give a testimony that this most likely had a plan. Chaos coming into order because of infinite tries seems to me a greater faith than God. How did we get here? Why am I aware of my existence? Seems to point to some design correct?

Anyway like I said before. I'm not really into arguing about someone's beliefs. If you really want to know why I believe send me a message. I'd be glad to talk about it.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Whether Santa Claus is real or not real doesn't really matter to me. I've neither tried to prove or disprove his existence. His existence because it's absurd means it's most likely false. BUT that we are here living on a life sustaining planet with water, a sun, food, surrounded by animals, and have these working bodies does give a testimony that this most likely had a plan. Chaos coming into order because of infinite tries seems to me a greater faith than God. How did we get here? Why am I aware of my existence? Seems to point to some design correct?

Anyway like I said before. I'm not really into arguing about someone's beliefs. If you really want to know why I believe send me a message. I'd be glad to talk about it.

The concept of god doesn't matter to me either, just like you don't lie awake wondering about Allah or Vishnu or whether fairies are real.

We are debating the existence of god in DM.

God only exists in the minds of believers.

 

[jacrispies]

The concept of god doesn't matter to me

By your zeal in this thread, it does clearly matter to you

 

[Wolkenflieger]

By your zeal in this thread, it does clearly matter to you

Only insomuch as it's being discussed. Nice use of the word "zeal" though. I see what you did there.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I’m not a Pharisee, so i don’t know why you draw that conclusion about me. Like I said, I’m not an anti-theist Christopher Hitchens-type (though he was a very witty journalist), and I am truly quite open. In fact, I’ve read a lot of Bernardo Kastrup recently and concluded that it’s unlikely there is a physical/material world at all; I’m very open to changing my metaphysical outlook and try to be very honest about what I know and don’t know, and how I know it (epistemic humility).

I think most people, believers and nonbelievers, choose their position based at least partially on either the perceived or subconscious consequences/ramifications of the worldview; that’s not a charge you can pin on only atheists.

In essence, belief cannot be "chosen". As a rational person you cannot sincerely believe that 2+2=5, especially when you know better.

I cannot choose to believe in that which I know isn't true, be it Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or gods.

There is good reason that children are introduced to religious indoctrination before their logical minds develop and long before their frontal lobes are developed around age 25. Forestall this indoctrination until age 25 with no prior religious exposure and it would be a tough sell.

What we can do is choose to be honest about definitions, logic, avoiding logical fallacies; and strive for courageous intellectual honesty with a stoic mindset. This is a good practice when interrogating any of our beliefs.

 

[grandpapeepap]

The 144k "elect" is an idea from the JWs, or Jehovah"s Witnesses. I haven't seen Colt mention that he's a JW but maybe I missed it?

Its directly from the bible too which is Gods word, anyone who adds or takes away will have their name removed from the book of life. See what i mean by a buffet .

 

[weaverftw]

In essence, belief cannot be "chosen". As a rational person you cannot sincerely believe that 2+2=5, especially when you know better.

I cannot choose to believe in that which I know isn't true, be it Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, or gods.

There is good reason that children are introduced to religious indoctrination before their logical minds develop and long before their frontal lobes are developed around age 25. Forestall this indoctrination until age 25 with no prior religious exposure and it would be a tough sell.

What we can do is choose to be honest about definitions, logic, avoiding logical fallacies; and strive for courageous intellectual honesty with a stoic mindset. This is a good practice when interrogating any of our beliefs.

I don’t disagree with anything you said, but your argument relies on that initial “as a rational person” preamble. People are very often NOT rational and I think most people DON’T interrogate their beliefs. They often pick a “camp” based on how it makes them feel, whether it be a feeling of safety/moral superiority from a religious stance or a feeling of intellectual superiority (which tracks very closely with the coastal elitism that we see from anti-gun progressives) or the edgy/anti-establishment image from an atheistic stance.

Now, I think the religious folks tend to base their worldview on the feels more than the other camp, but it happens on both sides. There are also some Thomistic/Aristotelian types who do place a premium on logic and philosophy, I just happen to think they’re wrong.

Totally agree on the indoctrination from a young age; data show people’s worldview tracks pretty well with their upbringing generally.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

Its directly from the bible too which is Gods word, anyone who adds or takes away will have their name removed from the book of life. See what i mean by a buffet .

Oh I agree, Christians are nothing if not inconsistent. Sunday is the first day of the week and Saturday is the Sabbath. You know the Christians got that wrong too, except for the Seventh-Day Adventists who can count. The Jews got it right too. The Sabbath is Saturday, or "Saturn's Day" to use the etymological source.

The days of the week are named for Norse, Germanic, and Roman gods;

Sun's Day, Moon's Day, Tyr's Day, Woden's Day, Thor's Day, Freya's Day, Saturn's Day.

 

[Wolkenflieger]

I don’t disagree with anything you said, but your argument relies on that initial “as a rational person” preamble. People are very often NOT rational and I think most people DON’T interrogate their beliefs. They often pick a “camp” based on how it makes them feel, whether it be a feeling of safety/moral superiority from a religious stance or a feeling of intellectual superiority (which tracks very closely with the coastal elitism that we see from anti-gun progressives) or the edgy/anti-establishment image from an atheistic stance.

Now, I think the religious folks tend to base their worldview on the feels more than the other camp, but it happens on both sides. There are also some Thomistic/Aristotelian types who do place a premium on logic and philosophy, I just happen to think they’re wrong.

Totally agree on the indoctrination from a young age; data show people’s worldview tracks pretty well with their upbringing generally.

Oh believe me I know. I've been religious. I've been an atheist for decades. I intimately understand both sides.

The difference is that as a Christian-inculcated child I was warned not to doubt my beliefs or question god. It's only when I tried to argue my case vs. a highly-respected atheist that I realized I was wrong. Unlike most theists, I changed my mind to suit the evidence instead of trying to hand-wave my way to "win". Not to toot my horn but most people aren't that quick to deconvert, and I've debated hundreds of theists. One, just one person was able to deconvert in a month as a result of honest debate and a sincere desire to figure it all out. It's exceedingly rare.

This is why intellect alone is never sufficient to overcome ideological capture. One must also be brutally honest and courageous, with a willingness to humble one's self and admit when one is wrong. This is ironic because religious types often accuse us atheists of being arrogant, but most of us have been through some kind of arc where we had to be accountable for any lapses in logic. If we don't hold ourselves accountable, someone else will and it won't always be nice or gentle.

Think about how most of us would handle Flat-Earthers, not trolls, but people who genuinely and erroneously think the Earth is flat. It's absurd to anyone who knows better, so why would anyone believe such nonsense?

This is true for any foundationally-incorrect ideology, not just religious belief. My own brother is an atheist but has a bad case of the Woke Mind Virus and hasn't talked to me in over two years because of ideological differences, and he's wicked smart. I never thought that would happen. It's the same reason otherwise smart people join cults, or objectively bat ideologies. They're in too deep to be objective...until something shocks them into serious and HONEST self-interrogation.

 

[Yoteassasin]

This thread is a perfect example why this forum is lame