Mag Disconnect - do you just accept it?

[sshkeptic]

I don't accept it. That's why I'm here for old and off roster handguns.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

doesn't that mean you didn't accept it?

Kind of. If there is an option to get a version with out an LCI and mag disconnect I will. Having said that, my daily carry is an Sig P365 which has three things on it I’d prefer it didn’t: manual safety (just one more thing to do under extreme stress - I practice a lot with it), LCI, mag disconnect. With the exception of the sights it is 100% stock.

 

[9Cal_OC]

Kind of. If there is an option to get a version with out an LCI and mag disconnect I will. Having said that, my daily carry is an Sig P365 which has three things on it I’d prefer it didn’t: manual safety (just one more thing to do under extreme stress - I practice a lot with it), LCI, mag disconnect. With the exception of the sights it is 100% stock.

You can easily remove all 3… that being said, if your IA restricts it, then it’s moot (assuming it’s your CCW).

 

[Sheepdog1968]

You can easily remove all 3… that being said, if your IA restricts it, then it’s moot (assuming it’s your CCW).

It is my CCW. My IA didn’t say anything about this. When it comes to a self defense pistol, I am super conservative. Outside of the sights, I don’t change things with what comes the factory. As such, if I wanted a pistol without those things, I’d but an off roster one via PPT that came that way. I know, it’s kind of silly but should I ever get in a defensive shooting, I want to minimize the amount of other things the DA office could dislike. For a range or training pistol, I much more open to trying different things.

 

[RustVendor]

It is my CCW. My IA didn’t say anything about this. When it comes to a self defense pistol, I am super conservative. Outside of the sights, I don’t change things with what comes the factory. As such, if I wanted a pistol without those things, I’d but an off roster one via PPT that came that way. I know, it’s kind of silly but should I ever get in a defensive shooting, I want to minimize the amount of other things the DA office could dislike. For a range or training pistol, I much more open to trying different things.

Does it actually make sense legally that you would be F-ed for taking out a mag disconnect vs not F-ed buying an off roster without it? it's the same thing, if you were F-ed for one you are F-ed for the other but you won't be F-ed either way

 

[adrkwan]

Does it actually make sense legally that you would be F-ed for taking out a mag disconnect vs not F-ed buying an off roster without it? it's the same thing, if you were F-ed for one you are F-ed for the other but you won't be F-ed either way

Maybe they will try to attribute some fault to you for modifying the gun yourself versus if it was like that when you bought it. I doubt the mag disconnect will matter unless you shot someone you didn't mean to shoot.

 

[RustVendor]

Maybe they will try to attribute some fault to you for modifying the gun yourself versus if it was like that when you bought it. I doubt the mag disconnect will matter unless you shot someone you didn't mean to shoot.

if you remove it and then your baby gets a hold of the gun and murders someone, is that going to be different than if you go out of your way to buy one without it and the same thing happens? You will be in trouble because the thing happened, not because of the state of the gun. This topic has come up a lot and there's no cases that I have ever seen where that modifications that had no bearing on the outcome mattered at all.

 

[adrkwan]

if you remove it and then your baby gets a hold of the gun and murders someone, is that going to be different than if you go out of your way to buy one without it and the same thing happens? You will be in trouble because the thing happened, not because of the state of the gun. This topic has come up a lot and there's no cases that I have ever seen where that modifications that had no bearing on the outcome mattered at all.

Maybe. If your baby shot someone you have much bigger problems than modifying a gun.

Let's say you removed your mag disconnect, ND and hit someone at the range in the arm after removing your magazine because you thought it was empty. I can see that scenario being significantly worse for you in a civil suit than if you had just legally obtained a gun without a mag disconnect. Juries are not the smartest people and an affirmative action on your part to remove a "safety feature" could easily pickup traction with them.

 

[RustVendor]

Maybe. If your baby shot someone you have much bigger problems than modifying a gun.

Let's say you removed your mag disconnect, ND and hit someone at the range in the arm after removing your magazine because you thought it was empty. I can see that scenario being significantly worse for you in a civil suit than if you had just legally obtained a gun without a mag disconnect. Juries are not the smartest people and an affirmative action on your part to remove a "safety feature" could easily pickup traction with them.

yeah i mean in that case you F-ed up but you F-ed up because you didn't follow the fundamental rules of gun safety. If you never pull the trigger or even point a gun in someone's direction this will never be a problem. It could still be hypothetically argued that you chose an unsafe gun by buying off roster vs the very safe and approved roster version. It's literally harder to get an off roster version than to take the thing out.

 

[adrkwan]

yeah i mean in that case you F-ed up but you F-ed up because you didn't follow the fundamental rules of gun safety. If you never pull the trigger or even point a gun in someone's direction this will never be a problem. It could still be hypothetically argued that you chose an unsafe gun by buying off roster vs the very safe and approved roster version. It's literally harder to get an off roster version than to take the thing out.

Yeah that's an interesting question. The gun is working as intended when you get an off roster without a mag disconnect versus modification which removes some functionality. Wonder if we have any products liability lurkers to comment?

 

[lohssanami]

I don't accept it so I removed the MDM from the following.

M&P 2.0 9 and 10
Shield
Sig 322
Echelon
PDP

I initially got the no profile LCI from Apex for my Shield 40, but then decided to get an optic ready 9mm slide for it.

I say if you can do the work yourself or don't mind paying a gunsmith, go ahead, and like someone said earlier, follow the 4 rules of gun safety.

If you spend lots of time with hypothetical situations keeping you on the fence, then you may not have time to make the change.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Does it actually make sense legally that you would be F-ed for taking out a mag disconnect vs not F-ed buying an off roster without it? it's the same thing, if you were F-ed for one you are F-ed for the other but you won't be F-ed either way

To me and you, no, it doesn’t. To a grand jury or 12 jurors who aren’t gun enthusiasts, I don’t know. I’d rather have the gun the way it was configured. Mas Ayoob maybe 5 or 10 years ago wrote a book in which he described there were several things you shouldn’t do to your firearm as there was no legal defense. It was things such as having Punisher logos and engraving the barrel tip with phrases.

Here’s another story. Frank Tabor, now deceased for a year so I feel ok sharing, rang a good gun store in San Bruno. I heard the story directly from Frank. The DA in San Mateo decided to prosecute him for legally transferring a registered assulalt weapon. Frank broke no law and he did it 100% by the book. It cost him $75K in legal fees to prove so. As such, he didn’t give a when folks would be upset with him it he was overly conservative on what he would and wouldn’t sell. He paid the price once. So, you could be 100 percent right that none of these modifications matter but it might cost you a lot to do so. Hence, more conservative. I once was getting grief and a well established gun range in teh SF Bay Area which I was sighting in my 30-30 lever action in a youth configuration which had a 12” stock and a 16 & 3/8” barrel. He thought the barrel was too short and should be 18” (shot gun length). He called the front desk and they said as long as 16.25” it was ok (wrong). It all worked out for me but ever since when I take my rifle to the range I have the laws printed out. You think cops wouldn’t prosecute such a thing if called. Well, again, Frank Tabor had a story of someone he hold a shotgun to that had an 18.5” barrel and it was somehow modified by the person who purchased it. It wasn’t. Stuff happens and it can get expensive to fix. I’m older now, 57, and I’ve seen plenty of stuff happen that shouldn’t. It gets resolved but can be expensive. Hence, I’m so conservative.

 

[RustVendor]

To me and you, no, it doesn’t. To a grand jury or 12 jurors who aren’t gun enthusiasts, I don’t know. I’d rather have the gun the way it was configured. Mas Ayoob maybe 5 or 10 years ago wrote a book in which he described there were several things you shouldn’t do to your firearm as there was no legal defense. It was things such as having Punisher logos and engraving the barrel tip with phrases.

Here’s another story. Frank Tabor, now deceased for a year so I feel ok sharing, rang a good gun store in San Bruno. I heard the story directly from Frank. The DA in San Mateo decided to prosecute him for legally transferring a registered assulalt weapon. Frank broke no law and he did it 100% by the book. It cost him $75K in legal fees to prove so. As such, he didn’t give a when folks would be upset with him it he was overly conservative on what he would and wouldn’t sell. He paid the price once. So, you could be 100 percent right that none of these modifications matter but it might cost you a lot to do so. Hence, more conservative. I once was getting grief and a well established gun range in teh SF Bay Area which I was sighting in my 30-30 lever action in a youth configuration which had a 12” stock and a 16 & 3/8” barrel. He thought the barrel was too short and should be 18” (shot gun length). He called the front desk and they said as long as 16.25” it was ok (wrong). It all worked out for me but ever since when I take my rifle to the range I have the laws printed out. You think cops wouldn’t prosecute such a thing if called. Well, again, Frank Tabor had a story of someone he hold a shotgun to that had an 18.5” barrel and it was somehow modified by the person who purchased it. It wasn’t. Stuff happens and it can get expensive to fix. I’m older now, 57, and I’ve seen plenty of stuff happen that shouldn’t. It gets resolved but can be expensive. Hence, I’m so conservative.

fair enough!

 

[Gawernator]

Does it actually make sense legally that you would be F-ed for taking out a mag disconnect vs not F-ed buying an off roster without it? it's the same thing, if you were F-ed for one you are F-ed for the other but you won't be F-ed either way

No it doesn't make sense and that's why it has never even been a factor in a criminal trial. 100% pure FUDD

Yeah that's an interesting question. The gun is working as intended when you get an off roster without a mag disconnect versus modification which removes some functionality. Wonder if we have any products liability lurkers to comment?

It's not really a product liability question, because we aren't the manufacturer, we are the end user.

To me and you, no, it doesn’t. To a grand jury or 12 jurors who aren’t gun enthusiasts, I don’t know. I’d rather have the gun the way it was configured. Mas Ayoob maybe 5 or 10 years ago wrote a book in which he described there were several things you shouldn’t do to your firearm as there was no legal defense. It was things such as having Punisher logos and engraving the barrel tip with phrases.

Here’s another story. Frank Tabor, now deceased for a year so I feel ok sharing, rang a good gun store in San Bruno. I heard the story directly from Frank. The DA in San Mateo decided to prosecute him for legally transferring a registered assulalt weapon. Frank broke no law and he did it 100% by the book. It cost him $75K in legal fees to prove so. As such, he didn’t give a when folks would be upset with him it he was overly conservative on what he would and wouldn’t sell. He paid the price once. So, you could be 100 percent right that none of these modifications matter but it might cost you a lot to do so. Hence, more conservative. I once was getting grief and a well established gun range in teh SF Bay Area which I was sighting in my 30-30 lever action in a youth configuration which had a 12” stock and a 16 & 3/8” barrel. He thought the barrel was too short and should be 18” (shot gun length). He called the front desk and they said as long as 16.25” it was ok (wrong). It all worked out for me but ever since when I take my rifle to the range I have the laws printed out. You think cops wouldn’t prosecute such a thing if called. Well, again, Frank Tabor had a story of someone he hold a shotgun to that had an 18.5” barrel and it was somehow modified by the person who purchased it. It wasn’t. Stuff happens and it can get expensive to fix. I’m older now, 57, and I’ve seen plenty of stuff happen that shouldn’t. It gets resolved but can be expensive. Hence, I’m so conservative.

Even hyper boomer Ayoob says don't put a hair trigger or punisher skull, he didn't say you need to have a mag disconnect. And even then, that is pretty archaic although relevant advice. He cites a very old case from the 80's where a cop was charged but not convicted because his revolver had a hair trigger mod, and he shot a black kid that was playing an arcade machine. That was about 45 years ago, not sure of any other case since then. The punisher and other gaudy stuff like that is just bad optics.

 

[Gawernator]

To me and you, no, it doesn’t. To a grand jury or 12 jurors who aren’t gun enthusiasts, I don’t know. I’d rather have the gun the way it was configured. Mas Ayoob maybe 5 or 10 years ago wrote a book in which he described there were several things you shouldn’t do to your firearm as there was no legal defense. It was things such as having Punisher logos and engraving the barrel tip with phrases.

Here’s another story. Frank Tabor, now deceased for a year so I feel ok sharing, rang a good gun store in San Bruno. I heard the story directly from Frank. The DA in San Mateo decided to prosecute him for legally transferring a registered assulalt weapon. Frank broke no law and he did it 100% by the book. It cost him $75K in legal fees to prove so. As such, he didn’t give a when folks would be upset with him it he was overly conservative on what he would and wouldn’t sell. He paid the price once. So, you could be 100 percent right that none of these modifications matter but it might cost you a lot to do so. Hence, more conservative. I once was getting grief and a well established gun range in teh SF Bay Area which I was sighting in my 30-30 lever action in a youth configuration which had a 12” stock and a 16 & 3/8” barrel. He thought the barrel was too short and should be 18” (shot gun length). He called the front desk and they said as long as 16.25” it was ok (wrong). It all worked out for me but ever since when I take my rifle to the range I have the laws printed out. You think cops wouldn’t prosecute such a thing if called. Well, again, Frank Tabor had a story of someone he hold a shotgun to that had an 18.5” barrel and it was somehow modified by the person who purchased it. It wasn’t. Stuff happens and it can get expensive to fix. I’m older now, 57, and I’ve seen plenty of stuff happen that shouldn’t. It gets resolved but can be expensive. Hence, I’m so conservative.

Not saying it's fake but what is the case number? Let's read the complaint.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

Not saying it's fake but what is the case number? Let's read the complaint.

I searched. It’s case number NF309608A in San Mateo County Court. Pasted a link that gives high level activities. I did look at the charge penal code to confirm it was Frank’s case.

Superior Court of California, County of San Mateo

odyportal-ext.sanmateocourt.org

California Penal Code Section 12280

Read California Penal Code - California Penal Code Section 12280. Need legal help? Connect with top-rated California defense attorneys for a free consultation on LawLink.

lawlink.com

 

[Sheepdog1968]

No it doesn't make sense and that's why it has never even been a factor in a criminal trial. 100% pure FUDD

It's not really a product liability question, because we aren't the manufacturer, we are the end user.

Even hyper boomer Ayoob says don't put a hair trigger or punisher skull, he didn't say you need to have a mag disconnect. And even then, that is pretty archaic although relevant advice. He cites a very old case from the 80's where a cop was charged but not convicted because his revolver had a hair trigger mod, and he shot a black kid that was playing an arcade machine. That was about 45 years ago, not sure of any other case since then. The punisher and other gaudy stuff like that is just bad optics.

To me, it comes down to how conservative do you want to be. It’s your life. I spend a lot of time in the day job doing risk management. So, to me it is a risk. What we are really debating is the probability and impact if the DA wants to use this as part of grand jury or prosecution. True, Mas didn’t mention mag disconnect. It’s a matter of where do you draw the line and stand on it. We are on opposite sides on this and that is fine. I used to work in a lab using high energy chemicals and I have had a small explosion. I know some who lost an arm from a lab accident as well as another individual who is deaf in one ear from expolosion.; Also knew some who was so badly burned in a lab accident it was really touch and go whether they would live. Friend of mine had a professor die from dimethyl mercury poisoning at Dartmouth. My experience is not at all unusual for a chemist in terms of knowing people who have had things happen to them. I earned the nickname of Captain Caution in grad school and no doubt that has spilled into other areas of my life.

 

[RustVendor]

To me, it comes down to how conservative do you want to be. It’s your life. I spend a lot of time in the day job doing risk management. So, to me it is a risk. What we are really debating is the probability and impact if the DA wants to use this as part of grand jury or prosecution. True, Mas didn’t mention mag disconnect. It’s a matter of where do you draw the line and stand on it. We are on opposite sides on this and that is fine. I used to work in a lab using high energy chemicals and I have had a small explosion. I know some who lost an arm from a lab accident as well as another individual who is deaf in one ear from expolosion.; Also knew some who was so badly burned in a lab accident it was really touch and go whether they would live. Friend of mine had a professor die from dimethyl mercury poisoning at Dartmouth. My experience is not at all unusual for a chemist in terms of knowing people who have had things happen to them. I earned the nickname of Captain Caution in grad school and no doubt that has spilled into other areas of my life.

Yeah for me I am perfectly fine removing it because I think the risk is low but I certainly won't tell others to change their personal risk tolerance based on my own feelings. It's definitely a grey area in that it's neither explicitly allowed or disallowed.

 

[Gawernator]

It’s a neurotic obsession and super unrealistic. Why would you worry about it at all? You’re far more likely to die in a car crash than to have a 1 in a billion criminal charge based on your MD.

By this logic don’t leave your house or go outside because you might die.

 

[Gravel]

I think it’s 2028 before micro stamping will impact the Roster. Buy while you can.

Building a good collection and leaving CA for retirement is the goal, although my roster guns will be sorta worthless in a free state. I don’t buy guns that I don’t want to keep, so resale value is secondary..

I’m hopeful that by 2028, CA will have been hogtied by the SCOTUS on 2A issues and we won’t have to plan for more idiotic laws, but I’m absolutely not counting on that. Hope is not a plan.

Unless the mag disconnect or LCI gives me an idea that it’ll cause reliability issues, I’ll leave them as is, I’m not removing them proactively. If they act up in any way though, they’ll just disappear..